KWSN Orbiting Fortress

mohrorless · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Fishy Update

It's been a year since the fateful day at sumer camp.

You might remember Gone Fishing Day. Each child goes home with a Goldfish. My kids got theirs. I ended up getting a 10 gallon tank, a filter, food and all the other interesting stuff to keep the fish. Several fish replacements later, I emptied the tankand cleaned it out real good. Then I let it sit (empty) for a few weeks. Then I filled it up, put everything back in and started it up, without fish. After a few weeks, I went and got new fish. I bought several Neon Tetras. This was back in October.

There have been a few deaths and replacements with the Tetras, but they seem to last longer than the Goldfish. About 6 weeks ago I added in 3 Glowfish and all is well.

I was getting some green algae in one end of the tank, so I went and got a Gold Algae Eater. It was doing fine until Saturday when it passed on, it has been rather hot lately and the tank got pretty warm (about 86 F), so that might have been the problem. Sunday I bought 2 replacement Gold Algae Eaters. They are in the tank (hiding like crazy).

I have been working on keeping the tank cool. The only method I could come up with is to take a plastic bottle of water and freeze it. I put the bottle in the tank to help bring the temp of the tank down. When it has defrosted and warmed up, I take it out, refreeze it and repeat.

Does anyone have a better idea on keeping the tank cool(er)?

Gues what today is? Yup. Gone Fishing Day. Any guesses on how long these fish are going to last?
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Michelle · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:28 am Post subject:

I'm seeking advice from the expert for you on this one.

We had a couple of aquarium shops when I was a kid so I'm asking my mother.

Fish can be pretty touchy to look after.

Okay here we go -

Goldfish are cold water fish so the warmer temp wouldn't be any good for them.
Neon Tetras are tropical fish so they should like the warm water. They don't like cold water.
The Gold Algae Eater is a tropical fish so the warmer water temp shouldn't bother them at all. They don't like cold water.

How many fish in the tank? Maybe they are running out of oxygen. Your pump needs to be running fairly fast, you need at least one filter and possibly an airstone or an air line running into the tank.

Look for diseases - most common are whitespot (tiny white spots on the body, easily visible on transparent fins, get drops from aquarium shop), body fungus and mouth fungus (will kill fish, look for fungus on bodies or around mouth), fin rot (erosion of edges of fins, fins look raggedy/fungussy along edges).
That's the most common. You can get treatments from aquarium shops.

Don't keep raising and lowering the tank temp as this makes the fish more vulnerable to whitespot and fungus. Keep the water warm for tropical fish.
Don't put the frozen water bottle in and don't put saltwater shells and coral etc in the water.
Don't forget to check the ph of the water, it should be neutral to slightly acid for tropical fish.

The expert has spoken.

Have fun.

#ni-1

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mohrorless · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:15 am Post subject:

Thanks Michelle!

There is no disease in the tank. The fish are ok in that respect.

There is plenty of oxygen, I have an airstone and the filter is the kind that has a bit of a waterfall effect (more surface agitation = more oxygen). The filter is running at the max rate. It is an Aquaclear 20 (for tanks from 5 to 20 gallons - I have a 10 gallon tank). The water is pretty clear. There are 10 to 12 fish in the tank.

I am having a bit of difficulty with the PH. It keeps dropping. I tested the water coming out of the tap and it is a perfect 7.0, I have bucket that is ONLY for the fish water. The water in that is a perfect 7.0. After a few days in the tank, the PH starts to drop, by the end of the week it gets near 6.0. I have used Proper PH 7.0 to adjust it back to near 7.0. It always rebounds back down within a coupe of days.

I am looking to keep the temperature between 70 and 80 F in the tank. The fish seem to respond well when it is in that range.

There is no coral or saltwater shells in the tank. just rocks at the bottom (from the pet store) a lava rock, and Castle Camelot and Castle Anthrax. Wink

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Sir Papa Smurph · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:47 am Post subject:

I agree with Michelle.

Do you have a under gravel filter. If not, Get one.

reset up the tank with a couple of fish that you dont care if they live or die and run it for a couple of weeks.

There used to be a product called Maricyn on the market that is a very good antibiotic try that.

Here is a guide to fish compatibility http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_chart.html

Gold fish are very dirty fish and will require much more maintenance than other tropicals. Don't mix Community Tropicals with Chiclids.

The larger the tank the easier it is to keep healthy. I recommend a 90 gallon. You can have 50 to 70 small to medium fish in that size, and things happen slower so you can catch them before a mass kill.

Don't let the sun shine on your tank. The water will super heat and you will get uncontrollable algae growth.

I also recommend that you don't use pet store gravel. I always used Pea-Gravel from local sources. It is a hassle but once it is clean it is very stable and surprisingly attractive. Pet store gravel is usually dyed and coated in some kind of wax that has the potential to contaminate the water.

You are right about the temp as well. 70 is the mimimum and 76 is about perfect. Water carries less oxygen as it gets warm and 80+ will start to suffocate your fish.

Re: your ph... there is something in the tank that is changing the ph. My guess is the gravel, but it could be air stone or toys etc.

I also don't use or trust those PH changer chemicals. Just keep doing a 20% H2O change. Never do a 100% unless you have had a mass die off.

when you add fish do it Slowly one or 3 at a time. Unless you have neons or zebra etc 10 fish may be too many in a 10 gallon.
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Michelle · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:52 am Post subject:

What do you mean by the water is 'pretty clear'? Does it get a little bit cloudy?

What sort of filter do you have? An under-gravel filter or a box filter? An under-gravel filter will make the tank very acid. A box filter is better.
With filters, the water should be crystal clear.

Be careful not to overfeed the fish. It's very easy to do.

Do you know the hardness of the water? Have you got a water softener on your tap? It could be making the water too soft. If the tap water is very hard that could affect the fish as well.
Tropical fish originate from slightly acid soft water.
You can get a water hardness test kit to test the hardness of the water.
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mohrorless · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:30 am Post subject:

I have this filter: Aqua Clear

The water only gets cloudy when I do a water change (never a full only a partial - at most 50%), when I stir up the bottom during the change. It clears fairly quickly after I am done and the filter is running again. The only other time it is not clear is when I mess with the filter and the tank cycles for a day or 2.

I have no under gravel filter.

I will test the tap water this afternoon and report the results.

If I go for a larger tank I better make it a tank that can double for my coffin because my wife will kill me and bury me in it. Pluse we don't have the room for anything bigger than the 10 gallon we have now (my wife complains about that one too).

My gravel is not dyed. It is actual rocks, looks like this: Gravel

I try to not overfeed the fish. I feed them once a day. A couple of pinches of flake food or Tetracolor sometimes a little of both.

I only add fish as I get them (not often) and only acouple at a time. I have no plans on any more fish any time soon (other than the gold fish today). I think the approx 12 fish I have now in the 10 gallon tank is fine. They have plenty of room to swim around.

Unfortunately the tank does get some sunlight (afternoon). I have nowhere else to put the tank in the house (for now).

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone!
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mohrorless · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject:

Update!

The kids did not get goldfish. Whoever arranged for the fish supplied feeder fish. They look a bit like goldfish, but smaller. They are a bit bigger then my other fish, but seem to be interacting ok. they also seem attracted to the algae, as they are at it a good bit of the time, munching away. So far, so good.
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Michelle · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject:

Good luck. I hope these work out better than the goldfish. #ni-1

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mohrorless · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:54 am Post subject:

Thanks. As of this morning, they are all still alive.
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Al Dente · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:45 am Post subject:

A few of points from my experience (in no particular order).

The water temperature sounds a bit high - tropicals should be at ~25C/64F - I try to keep mine within 1C/2F of this.

Your pH problem could be the lava rock you mentioned - try removing it for a few days.

The algae is almost certainly a combination of overfeeding (putting nutrients into the water) and the sunlight (giving energy for the stuff to grow). I suffer mightily with this and have to clean the tank sides every couple of weeks to keep it under some sort of control.

How often do you clean your filter (once a week is about right). Do you add a dose of filter bacteria after cleaning - these are the bacteria that eat fish excreta (that's a polite way of saying poop & pee); chlorine in tap-water kills these, so they need replenishing.
The Nitrogen Cycle is the process whereby various bacteria convert ammonium (from food & waste products and which is poisonous to fish), to Nitrites (also poisonous), then to Nitrates (relatively harmless).

Have you tested the water? For my well-established tanks I do this every 3 months or so; you may need to do it a bit more frequently until things are fairly stable. I use "TetraTest 5-in-1", which are little strips that test Nitrites, Nitrates, General Hardness, Calcium Hardness and pH in one go. (relatively expensive, but much easier than messing about with tests for each item separately).

An occasional partial (25 - 35%) water change also helps keep things under control, as well as introducing a fresh supply of trace-elements to the water.
BTW, when you change some of the water, what you extract from the tank is excellent for watering house-plants, as the nitrates are a good fertiliser.

Do you have any plants in the tank? - these can add a bit of oxygen to the water, although the surface turbulence from the filter should be adequate.

A good rule of thumb is 5 small fish (e.g. Glowlights, Danios) per square foot of surface area (e.g. 10 fish in a 2' x 1' tank) - don't forget, you can always add fish, but it's much harder to take a fish out, unless it's well and truly dead.

Cold-water fish will do fairly well in a heated (I assume you've got a heater for the winter?) tropical tank, but their metabolism will be speeded up, so expect them to be pretty active.

A Catfish (Cory, Corydoras) - a small variety, e.g. Leopard - is useful for cleaning up any food that the other fish don't get, rather than letting it rot on the bottom.

I have no solution to the problem of cooling your tank - the outside temperature in the UK so rarely exceeds 25C that I haven't met that one yet. Laughing

I'll no doubt think of many items to add to this as soon as I hit the "Submit" button.

Just one last(ish) item - remember that, much more so than with any other type of pet, you're TOTALLY in control of your fish's living environment - anything you do can affect it.

#ni-1

and happy fish-keeping

Alan
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mohrorless · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:48 am Post subject:

Thanks for the response & suggestions Toothy!

I think the water temp is being heavily influenced by the heat wave NYC is in right now. It is raining today and tomorrow, so that should break the heat a bit.

I'll pull the lava rock, and see what happens.

The algae might be from the feeding. I will cut back a bit. It is confined to the one end of the tank that is closer to the window. It is not too bad (yet). I do filter maint about once a week (sometimes it gets to every 2 weeks) No longer than that.

I add Cycle that eats the bacteria & helps with the nitrogen. Those levels in the tank are low (not perfect, but that might be from the new fish I got over the weekend and the aquarium hasn't fully adjusted yet) I did add more with the addition of each fish & add some weekly). The water I use for the tank is allowed to sit for a minimum of 24 hours to allow the as much of the chlorine to come out on it's own & I have a water conditioner that helps remove the rest of it.

I do test the water with the test strips (I did so yesterday). It tested ok. The levels were not perfect, but were close (enough so that I attributed it to the new fish over the weekend and the partial water change then too). I will test it again in a day or 2 to double check.

All my house plants have died (my wife is happy about that). There were not too many to begin with. There are no plants in the tank. The oxygen in the tank os from the filter and the air stone and Air pump I have going in there. I am not sure exactly which air pump model I have, ut that is the brand and there are plenty of bubbles bubbling.

I am about the max # of fish I will put in the tank. I will have to count them later to get a definate #.

I do have a heater for the winter and have it hold the tank around 72 F (22 - 23 C).

Agreed, fish are like babies, they need you for everything. Since my 2 kids turned out (mostly) ok, the fish should be easier (quieter ayway).
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Sir Papa Smurph · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject:

mohrorless · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject:

mohrorless · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject:

Another Update, RIP 1 Gold Algae eater. He was belly up and not moving or breathing on the floor of the tank by the air stone an hour or so ago. The other one (is actually white) looks like he is sucking on a rock with algae on it, so I guess he found the algae.
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Sir Papa Smurph · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject:

Those gold algae eaters always die. Get a nice picostimus. If you are lucky you will get a show off. They are so cool, and very hard to kill.

Ps: they get along with everyone. I have had them with everything from a Beta and Guppys to 5 lb Oscars.
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Al Dente · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:34 am Post subject:

I must admit, it sounds as if you're doing all the right things. No more suggestions at the mo, I'm afraid.
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mohrorless · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:07 am Post subject:

jbyram2 · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:54 am Post subject:

mohrorless · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject:

Sir Papa Smurph · Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: