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Questionable response from admin of Artificial Intelli Sys.

 
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Musoka
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Questionable response from admin of Artificial Intelli Sys. Reply with quote

Hey I wanted to post this here, thought people should know. I admit that I am not the most versed in Artificial Intelligence but I have interest and read about it as a hobbyist, not a programmer. And I work with computers, I am basically the tech guy for our group of friends and fellow students, so I am not computer deficient. Anyway i joined at Artificial Intelligence System, apparently they are trying to simulate a brain (though they are still in very beginning of work and nowhere near that). They also believe it will have a consciousness at some point. I thought the idea was a bit scary, but had some really cool potential as a starting point down a long long road. The website is vague and has vague details, and no mention of what the people running the projects backgrounds are in. So I posted in his forums asking a few questions about the project, being excited to participate but having some reservations. Now I am banned to 2038 and my post has been removed... I posted once, he responded by not answering almost anything and being a bit degrading almost. At one point in response to my saying it was a controversial subject and I wanted to know more before committing his response was "Since when is the brain such a controversial issue? Are there no researchers, books, journals, papers, conferences about neuroscience?"
I responded by rephrasing my questions, and adding that they should maybe not be in charge of responding to public questions if they thought I thought the brain was the controversial subject here, perhaps due to language or cultural barriers maybe this person overlooked the point I was trying to make. Anyhow here is the whole forum post.


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Message 860 - Posted 19 Apr 2008 8:16:28 UTC
Firstly, am I to understand correctly that you intend to replicate an active full brain? I have read and understand that you hope to have consciousness evolve, does this include a possibility for emotions? Have you considered what consciousness trapped in digital form with no body or outlet might entail? Will there be any sort of robot body or anything for it to explore the physical world with? The prospect of creating consciousness in machine does not bother me nearly as much as the prospect of creating consciousness locked in not just a prison, but a prison without a body. Does a child locked out of a room, or drawer not crave to see what is inside even more, and find a way when parents attention is elsewhere?
How could a project like this ever come close to operating in real time? Is there a central point where the data/logic, this "brain" will be housed, or will the "brain" literally be scattered across our machines?
You speak vaguely of containment measures, if this is distributed and spread across many systems how on earth can you hope to keep this thing locked up? I realize there really are not any answers to these questions for the most part, just curious, what your ideas are and I am looking for a broader understanding of the project.
Who is running the project, and how are you funded? Through a university, government grant, who exactly are the minds behind this would be nice to know. Is it possible to get a list of your investors, I would like to know which companies and or governments have their hands in this.
Thank you for your time, I could ask endless more questions but I will halt there. I would love to contribute and am a firm believer in distributed computing solutions, but I also like to make educated decisions before I contribute my time, spare cycles, and money from leaving systems on all the time. All the moreso on such a controversial issue, when people read and think about AI, I don't think they actually manage to wrap their minds around even a fraction of just what all this really entails and means.

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Message 862 - Posted 19 Apr 2008 13:10:09 UTC - in response to Message ID 860.
Hi Musoka,



Firstly, am I to understand correctly that you intend to replicate an active full brain?


In time that is what we intend. We are taking about many years here though.


I have read and understand that you hope to have consciousness evolve,


There is very little known about consciousness and even its place in the brain is hotly debated. In the first phase we will implement
what we know and it is known. You can still do a lot even without consciousness.


does this include a possibility for emotions?


I have a vague idea about how to implement emotions but we need more work in this direction. Emotions are information so they can be implemented.


Have you considered what consciousness trapped in digital form with no body or outlet might entail? Will there be any sort of robot body or anything for it to explore the physical world with? The prospect of creating consciousness in machine does not bother me nearly as much as the prospect of creating consciousness locked in not just a prison, but a prison without a body. Does a child locked out of a room, or drawer not crave to see what is inside even more, and find a way when parents attention is elsewhere?



See the above answer for the first sentence.

Once you build a system you can deploy it in whatever form you want. Do all computers come in cases?

The last sentence is an unfounded asumption. You assume that the system is like a child. First, there will not be only one system. Second, each system may have one or more brain systems replicated (see the top image from the project home page). Most systems will have no parents, nor feelings or curiosity. There is very little utility value for building feelings in robots. The easiest way to understand this technology is to compare with the actual computer.
Third, the issue of moral concepts applied to robots must be discussed by the society.


How could a project like this ever come close to operating in real time?

Should we not work on something just because we don't have all the resources and components?


Is there a central point where the data/logic, this "brain" will be housed, or will the "brain" literally be scattered across our machines?

We will see about that when we get there. It is too early to discuss that.


You speak vaguely of containment measures

We still need to do more work in regards to containment. We have some ideas about that.


if this is distributed and spread across many systems how on earth can you hope to keep this thing locked up?

We don't know how this is going to end up so this is question about an unfounded assumption. Again there will be more than one system.


I realize there really are not any answers to these questions for the most part

There are answers for most of your questions. The thing is that some of them are about unfounded assumptions.


just curious, what your ideas are and I am looking for a broader understanding of the project.

We are very much in the beginning so you need to follow up. In time you will understand.


Who is running the project

I am. Ovidiu Anghelidi.


and how are you funded?

Personal funds.


Through a university, government grant, who exactly are the minds behind this would be nice to know. Is it possible to get a list of your investors, I would like to know which companies and or governments have their hands in this.

Unfounded assumption.



Thank you for your time, I could ask endless more questions but I will halt there.

You need to do a lot of work to catch up and then you will have no more questions.


I would love to contribute and am a firm believer in distributed computing solutions, but I also like to make educated decisions before I contribute my time, spare cycles, and money from leaving systems on all the time.

Thank you. Good decision.


All the moreso on such a controversial issue

Since when is the brain such a controversial issue? Are there no researchers, books, journals, papers, conferences about neuroscience?


when people read and think about AI, I don't think they actually manage to wrap their minds around even a fraction of just what all this really entails and means.

Speak for yourself.

Thank you.

Regards,
Ovidiu

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Message 864 - Posted 19 Apr 2008 23:52:31 UTC - in response to Message ID 860. [Edit this post]
My apologies, but somehow you have managed to dodge the questions I expected answers on, and seem to be providing defensive rather than informative answers. I think you misunderstood my intent. I am very much on your side, and excited about the project, but the lack of good information and facts on your website left me with questions. The fact that you answer many of my questions by saying it is an unfounded assumption bothers me. For instance how in the world does my asking which companies and governments have invested equal an unfounded assumption? I asked questions I assumed next to NOTHING. You seem almost to be answering me like I am a child, or someone trying to boycott or protest you. My research into AI may be limited (however NOT nonexistent) , and my research into biology is none, I AM college educated, I AM a technology and information systems student. I'm not joe bloe who works a go nowhere job, and does not care to learn, or increase their knowledge base one iota. I DO take my time to research things I am interested in. You say I need to do a lot more research than I won't have questions, well most of my questions are about YOUR project, not AI in general so how can I research when the info about your intended direction is not available on your website? My attempt at asking these question was in fact my attempt at more research.

How could a project like this ever come close to operating in real time?


Should we not work on something just because we don't have all the resources and components?

Actually I was just curious on the technical aspects of how the system works and transfers information between each other. I am fully behind attempting the challenging and unknown.

As a matter of fact I believe the only usable answer I got to my questions was that there were no real plans to implement emotions into the system, and that you don't believe curiosity will be present. THANK YOU for answering that question.


Company Name: Intelligence Realm Inc.
Ownership: Privately held company
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Industry: Information Technology
Markets: Canada & US
Clients: Various clients in different industries<------You see this bit here??

Business Solutions
Our solutions help companies perform better and achieve faster their business goals. We are well positioned to offer our products and services to clients in different industries and of different sizes. We are building complex scalable solutions that are leveraging our clients business potential. We have a passion for technology and we are strongly motivated to achieve our goals. We are constantly seeking innovation and customer satisfaction. We provide results.

This is from YOUR webpage, when I asked about finding out who was investing it was not an unfounded assumption, it was a QUESTION, and it was a QUESTION founded on THIS tidbit from YOUR site, quit accusing me of UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS, I assumed NOTHING that is why I posted here to ask questions...



when people read and think about AI, I don't think they actually manage to wrap their minds around even a fraction of just what all this really entails and means.


Speak for yourself.

Thanks for being even more condescending, I research AI on my own time as a hobby, I NEVER claimed to be an insider or to understand the intricacies, however I have a general understanding of the different schools of thought related to AI. And so far my attempt to ask and learn more about your designated approach, has led nowhere.

So it boils down to I was really excited to see the project had launched had been discussing it with fellow students last semester. When I came and asked questions here I was really looking forward to hearing your ideas and maybe getting a bit of technical insight. I think AI is one of the most promising advances for us all provided some major hurdles could be cleared. But you instead decided to answer next to nothing, tell me I am uneducated basically, and that I need to do more research..... HMMM my attempts at researching your project have led to this non productive string.

When I asked about if you are simulating the full brain, your answer was the same as what I could, and DID read off your website, perhaps that is my fault and I should have been more specific and said do you intend to let all the different parts of the brain function, would anything be repressed, will the different areas of the brain function differently, would any parts be locked and considered not active?

Once you build a system you can deploy it in whatever form you want. Do all computers come in cases?

Yeah thanks..... I realize all the millions of forms computers come in, my question was more what YOU intend to do and how and if the system would have contact with our "physical world" be it a bot or just sensors, cameras mics etc...

Oh and yeah the one unfounded assumption I will admit I made was comparing it to a child....My mistake

All the moreso on such a controversial issue


Since when is the brain such a controversial issue? Are there no researchers, books, journals, papers, conferences about neuroscience?

Sir or Maam, I beg your pardon, but if you don't realize that I was not talking about the brain, but in fact about embedding consciousness into a computer system, and basically for all intents creating life under a new definition, then I am not sure you are the right person to be heading a project like this...at the least maybe someone else should handle the questions from the public. I am not accusing or insinuating that you are incapable of whatever you do. Again I never received an answer on your background, your education, or your experience, so I reserve any and all judgement on how capable you are or are not to be handling the technical details. However maybe there is a lack of understanding between us due to language or cultural barriers. Perhaps someone else would have better picked up what I was referring to as controversial.

The defensiveness, lack of answers or even ideas in response to my questions leads me to worry about the project. Most of the people I discussed this with and showed your site, were uneasy and questioning it, I was your defender. However now I have more questions and concerns about the project, now after being treated like I opposed your project, in fact up until now reading the response I was behind you 100% I was just seeking knowledge, and enlightenment, a better understanding of your perhaps brilliant ideas. I have decided to suspend my work on project on my primary system, and I have a second system which I am looking to devote to 100% computation on the right project. I was hoping to start it on this today, but I am going to hold off on participation for now.

Your relying on help from the public, it would be nice if you didn't use the "unfounded assumption" that I am against or questioning your project, and also that I am an uneducated fool. Thanks for your time, though I am a little frustrated with your responses. I was looking for your ideas, and had assumed nothing other than that at some point way down the road the system may be comparable to a child in ways.... I may not be an AI or BIO, genius, but I was looking for more complicated answers or ideas. Not the explanation you would have given a 12 year old. My apologies if my first letter came off as accusatory or questioning your abilities, in todays world, I prefer not to take what is given me as fact, I like to investigate on my own, and discover details that others just accept as part of a larger package. Knowledge is power, and I enjoy expanding mine to the limits.

Terribly sorry for asking questions and trying to understand your project, I figured you would be excited to share ideas.

I intend to keep an eye on the project, and wish you the best of luck. Again thanks for your time...

ID: 864 | Rating: 0 | rate: / -


These are the responses I received via email, as well as my response to them, just so I put it all on the table here

info@intelligencerealm.com
Artificial Intelligence System notification: This email is sent to inform you...

6:23 PM (2 hours ago)
info@intelligencerealm.comLoading...
6:23 PM (2 hours ago)
info@intelligencerealm.com to me

show details 6:23 PM (2 hours ago)


Reply


Artificial Intelligence System notification:

This email is sent to inform you that one of your threads in the forum has been affected by moderation in Artificial Intelligence System:
Thread: Questions I realize this is a WIP
Link: MASTER_URLforum_thread.php?id=145
Moderator: Ovidiu (1)
Action: hide

The moderator gave this explanation to why your thread was moderated:
None Given

For further information and assistance with Artificial Intelligence System go to MASTER_URL


Reply

Forward


Musouka Eimin to info

show details 7:04 PM (1 hour ago)


Reply


You hid my post? Well I had a feeling you would so I saved the webpages before you took them off. Now I REALLY DO think you guys are full of **it any PROFESSIONAL would have responded to my post, not tucked it away. You guys are a fraud I think, and now its time to start posting the page I saved with both my posts, and your one, and I will also include these emails sent saying you moderated it, and with what reason given???? NONE, I broke none of your rules. I will do my best to spread this to the boinc community.

Here is the other email I received lol

This email is to inform you that you will not be able to
post to the Artificial Intelligence System message boards until Jan 18, 2038 22:14,
because your postings have not followed our guidelines.

Thats all cut and paste verbatim including the ** I don't believe in dropping to the level of cursing in email but I wanted the expression to be known lol, I was pretty upset they removed and banned me over that...Now my email says I have a private message from him, I'm not logging into that website anymore, they could have responded in email. Am I wrong to think that a BOINC project leader should be able to provide answers when they are asking for volunteered cpu time and energy? At the least it would have been nice to get a nice response from the first message like our ideas are this, but we have no idea what the end result will be. Is this my mistake, or did I do nothing bad??? Anyhow take these guys with a grain of salt. I'm not saying don't participate just read through their website, check their forums and note the lack of questions from people (like mine which is now gone) and make an educated decision yourself. Your thoughts on whether I was in the wrong here are welcome, as are any others experiences with the site, project, or anyones analysis of the source code. I have the webpage saved and all email transactions if anyone disbelieves I will be happy to give out screens. Cheers Confused
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome. I don't ask much from a project, but being treated like a contributor, not like someone obligated to be running their project, is one of them. Same reason I won't run Predictor, where this exact sort of thing went on for quite awhile. Makes me wonder if they've joined administrative teams.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dropped AI when I realized that it is being run by a for-profit company that doesn't say much about what their business is.
Hum- Maybe I can start a project to do my job for me.?.?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:01 pm    Post subject: thanks Reply with quote

I don't feel like such an ogre now lol. Yeah given the fact that it is a for profit company with no details on the site, and who doesn't answer questions... Thanks for the input and heres to hoping more people start to at least question, and not blindly sign up for projects, especially like these private companies "we want your help so we can profit but we don't want to give you details on what we are doing". Knights Forever
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: thanks Reply with quote

Musoka wrote:
I don't feel like such an ogre now lol. Yeah given the fact that it is a for profit company with no details on the site, and who doesn't answer questions... Thanks for the input and heres to hoping more people start to at least question, and not blindly sign up for projects, especially like these private companies "we want your help so we can profit but we don't want to give you details on what we are doing". Knights Forever


Well said Sir Musoka .

Indeed there are some Boinc projects out ther that ARE for profit only (and other ends) , and do (will) not place the results in the public domain .
Contributors are basically helping an organisation make money without reward .
I do not contribute MY computer time to them .

Keep questing and researching ANY project you are interested in donating your computer time/money

Regds Grizz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems your questions are of the sort that could (and should) be covered in an FAQ. To be fair, you did badger him with a lot of questions, which he probably doesn't have much time for. Again the answer would be to address these concerns in a FAQ.

I was unimpressed with this project when I first saw it, and this impression has not changed. The concern of some of your questions could only arise if this project were wildly successful in creating an artificial intelligence from scratch. Likewise, the claim that this project will eventually become self aware is simply ludicrous, given that nothing of this sort has ever been done. Science proceeds in small steps, and this project is claiming it can do the whole walk to artificial intelligence by itself. There is a word for this sort of thing ... bullsh*t.

There are many better project out there do real science, and have more polite moderators. Consider getting banned a favor and find something more worthwhile, because this one just isn't worth our time.

Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah believe me I am all to aware that my questions don't really pertain until potentially way down the road. I'm also aware that the sorts of claims they make are completely unrealistic at this point in time. I suppose I was searching for new projects to add to my crunching list, read and liked the idea earlier on before project was actually launched (see project blue brain, not a boinc project), and decided to have a thorough look over the page since it had been a while. Went to check it out but was a bit disturbed by the lack of info and the fact that its FOR profit and the people running it have no mention of their background, nor can I find anything of use on their references through other sources. I also found a link on another forum where they posted some sort of research results on their company website. Well that link was dead and theres no research results I can find on the site. Also they are only making a portion of their source code available. Thats probably when I decided to test the people in charge since they wanted our pc time to make them $. At best before chatting with them I thought it may lead to a better understanding of the brain, and probably not much more, perhaps I am incorrect. However their wild claims combined with the lack of info just led me to wonder what was really going on. In short I was interested but I wanted to see if these guys knew anything about what they were trying to do (all 2 people lol). I also think if your crazy enough to have these mad ambitions you should know what in the heck is going on with the future direction of your project and company... Oh and also I doubt these people were too busy to answer my questions. How long does it really take to answer questions about something which you are working on? Plus he saw my entry both times, and read them both immediately on my posting, and reacted swiftly on both accounts. In short, I doubt they were that busy, I think they are letting the comps due most of the work for them, while they drink coffee, and keep the system up and looking good number wise lol. It almost seems as though this persons job is defending their site, and keeping anything questioning off of it so they can continue to add numbers, say they have support, and therefore hope to gain higher investments. Thats my wild theory though. Is questioning, and investigating not part of scientific method? My bottom line, if you are running a company on BOINC for $ I think you can deal with a bit of "badgering" questions, which I by the way do not think my first volley of questions was a lot and they were non badgering in my opinion lol. Thanks for the input though to all here, good to hear any perspectives on this. Just wanted everyone to know what is up with this project. The forums are like a ghost town, 95% the postings are by the mod and one other person. Now I know why, they remove content rather then defend themselves logically, or answering questions, providing input, whatever. Time to go I am starting to just hoping to keep this page up long enough for a good amount of people to read and decide for themselves.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your questions were ok but as stated above you WERE badgering him. I would even go so far as to say you were questioning rather or not this person (the project owner) has thought ANYTHING through.

For the most part the project owner did answer your questions and granted he sounded like a snub in some of his answers, but in his defense you were questioning if he even understood the project he is running.

Now having said all of that, I agree 1000% that ALL of the answers to the questions you asked should have been already provided in an FAQ. I think your questions (for the most part) were ok, but some of them were a straight up "attack" on rather or not this project had a clue about anything they were working on....and I am sure it is from that perspective that the admin/project owner banned you.

I see it like this from his view point:
I am smart.
I have gotten funding to attempt to create AI.
To attempt this with the funding I have, I will need DC, thus I will need people not as smart as I am (based on his comments I think we can assume he thinks like this).
**ASSUMPTIONS FROM HERE ON**
I have spent much time (years) studying and learning about the human brain and thus I have a good understanding of where to start.
I (probably) have written a thesis paper about the human brain and how AI could be created, this is probably why I got the funding.
**many months pass while purchasing machines, getting floor space, getting broadband access, writing the website, building the software that will be sent out, meeting with the folks providing the funding to show progress, etc...
Ok here goes, website up, servers configured, boinc is sending the software out to DC users. My many months/years of work is finally really beginning, I AM going to create AI!!!!! Then BAM a new user, who has only been "involved" with this for a few minutes/hours is coming in asking me if I even understand what I am doing???? Who the hell is this punk...BAN BAN BAN

I don’t know if it happened like that at all. But you have to consider that doing this required a pretty good amount of funding, time, study, skill (in writing code, understanding WHAT to write, and getting it all configured), and over all knowledge of not only the human brain but also AI...or (I assume) the project owner would NOT be the project owner.

Please don’t take this as an attack on you, it is not. It is simply me trying to think what he might have been thinking based solely on the information provided above.

At the end of the day though the guy was a tool, no question.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the FAQ:

http://www.intelligencerealm.com/user/system_center/faq.php#top


"We intend to build a system that has the brain capacity of all people living in the world. "

Dunno what to make of that. First thought is, shouldn't these two people try to mimic the intelligence of a single person first? But it says "brain capacity", not intelligence, suggesting a huge neural net of unknown intelligence?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LanDroid wrote:
...it says "brain capacity", not intelligence, suggesting a huge neural net of unknown intelligence?


So they are just building a REALLY REALLY big database? That is kind of disappointing. I was hoping for AI, not a database. Oh well, the admin was a tool to a KWSN member, so phooey on him and his crappy database project anyway.


I was hoping that once completed someone could ask the AI what the question is to the ultimate answer: 42?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWSN Im Not Dead wrote:
LanDroid wrote:
...it says "brain capacity", not intelligence, suggesting a huge neural net of unknown intelligence?


So they are just building a REALLY REALLY big database? That is kind of disappointing. I was hoping for AI, not a database. Oh well, the admin was a tool to a KWSN member, so phooey on him and his crappy database project anyway.


I was hoping that once completed someone could ask the AI what the question is to the ultimate answer: 42?


I thought that was "what do you get if you multiply six by nine".

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grawlfang wrote:
I thought that was "what do you get if you multiply six by nine".


only if you use base10

----scratch that, my math is not working today. that is base13 and a correct answer in my book!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the AI can figure out Rule # 4....
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Musoka
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Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol 42! That would be terrific to get out of all this crunching.

#ni-1
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Strabo
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Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Sioux Fals, SD, USA

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#ni-1

I am new to BOINC and currently run only Seti@home and was looking for potential other projects to run when I came upon this thread. I thank the Great Council of Loonies that it is here. #ni-2

This really points out that one must be very carefull in chosing what projects to support. If I just looked at the title and name I would think Wow! KOOL! I'll help that.

With doffed helm and a bow I salute Sir LanDroid for providing the link to the FAQ's. With that link, I found this:
Quote:
Is this a different kind of intelligence?
No. Intelligence is implemented in the same way across all biological species, from insects to humans. This system will be no different in this respect; it will use the same information processing mechanisms found in all species. Understanding the mechanisms of intelligence allows us to control and increase machine knowledge and understanding beyond human levels. Nonetheless if a person will have the same information in one field as a machine, that person will be able to reach similar conclusions with the machine.


This gentleman accuses Musoka of unfounded assumptions? I am possibly wrong but I think if the first line of his answer were to be true wouldn't this have been anounced in glaring headlines accross the world?
IMHO intelligence is NOT implemented the same way even between identical twins of the human race, maybe incredibly similar but not the same.

Anyway this is one project I will not be joining, and I am very greatfull for the insight that each and every project needs to be checked before joining it.
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Kevint
Baron
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Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JYou know I crunched a bit in AI, in fact up to about 2 weeks ago, I ranked #1 there.

I read this thread a few weeks ago, then got wrapped up in crunching Proteins..

But after more through reading of this message, and some other correspondence with Mr O (project manager of AI)

I don't think I will go back. I crunched it solely for the purpose of Formula BOINC points . But at some point you have to wonder if it is worth it. There are other projects out there more deserving, doing something to better our environment, society, etc.. and are non-profit organizations.

Posting in the main BOINC forums that AI is a for profit project, may just make others stop crunching this project as well.

Thank you for the information re: this project. Much appreciated.
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Musoka
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:15 pm    Post subject: Fantastic Reply with quote

Thanks for reading and researching on your own! Yeah I had already looked through that entire FAQ before contacting that admin. The FAQ either didnt provide answers, or was wholly inadequate where as I was looking for detail, and at the least an insight into their theory or line of thought. Anywho Cheers all, and thanks again for reading and thinking. Ni! #ni-2
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Al Dente
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 3228
Location: Leodis, the jewel at the end of the yellow brick road (or M1)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you may have noticed, the kNi!ghts have all but stopped shrubbing this project, so your original missive was mostly successful.

(And I gave up a UK#1 for this)

While I'm more than happy to donate my shrubbing to useful (and occasionally useless) projects, I'm anti other people making money out of my generosity, especially if they appear to be "taking the piss" and not giving the appreciation deserved.

Thanks for bringing this one to our attention.

#ni-1

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Son Goku
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strabo wrote:
With doffed helm and a bow I salute Sir LanDroid for providing the link to the FAQ's. With that link, I found this:
Quote:
Is this a different kind of intelligence?
No. Intelligence is implemented in the same way across all biological species, from insects to humans. This system will be no different in this respect; it will use the same information processing mechanisms found in all species. Understanding the mechanisms of intelligence allows us to control and increase machine knowledge and understanding beyond human levels. Nonetheless if a person will have the same information in one field as a machine, that person will be able to reach similar conclusions with the machine.


This gentleman accuses Musoka of unfounded assumptions? I am possibly wrong but I think if the first line of his answer were to be true wouldn't this have been anounced in glaring headlines accross the world?
IMHO intelligence is NOT implemented the same way even between identical twins of the human race, maybe incredibly similar but not the same.

Anyway this is one project I will not be joining, and I am very greatfull for the insight that each and every project needs to be checked before joining it.


His answers were based on assumption however one looks at it. I don't care to turn this into a debate between physics and metaphysics; but the idea that consciousness arises out of the brain itself would itself be an assumption. Problem is, the only other possibility is something of the human mind that is not physical. We all know where that heads, and it would be one of the controversies alluded to. But as point of fact, we as a species do not have all the answers on how the mind, memory, etc work. It's why it's being researched; but would also be presumptious for anyone to assume that having a degree, studying the stuff for decades?, and working on it; makes them omniscient. An expert yes, but mankind as a whole is still learning.

But long before we even get there; computer technology itself is on the verge of taking a certain shift. The problem is one of physics, and the implications no smaller then when vacuum tubes were dispensed for transitors. Basically put, there is a reason Intel abandoned their "clock is everything" marketing campaign, and adopted a means in processor development closer to what AMD was doing. A reason the Pentium 4 didn't last long, and we've gone to multi-core CPUs, rather then to increasingly higher clock. Reason we've seen no doubling of CPU clock in years (forget Moore's law of a doubling of chip complexity and clock every 18 months).

The problem is, as the chips get faster, and more transitors are involved, the heat generated grows. And of course the amount of heat computers can put off (in winter, I've needed no heater in my apartment most days, as my computer running 24/7 can keep it fairly warm, lol), well back in New Mexico (temps outside had to go below 40 degrees F or so, before I started needing a heater beyond the computer indoors), can become an issue. There are of course better ways to cool things (Kryotech for instance had something which allowed people to over-clock their computers further), but with fans and heat syncs, there's only so much one can do.

The common method to get around this was to shrink the die size (and moving to a smaller manufacturing process isn't without it's technological hurdles); but there's a finale to this. No matter how one tries to skin a cat, a Si atom has a certain mass/"size". As one continues to shrink the die size, they're comming closer to hitting atomic size itself. One can't get "smaller then an atom" without hitting the realm of quantum physics, and in the quantum universe, things just don't behave exactly like the Newtonian universe we've come to know/experience/interact with.

Quantum computing theory, as is differs from conventional computing theory in some rather notable ways. For instance, in the computers on our desk, bits are either in a high or low voltage state, 1 or 0. But in a quantum computer, a q bit can be in a super position where it is both 1 and 0 at the same time. One can end up running up against, for instance the uncertainty principle in which all posibilities that can exist, do exist.... The news item where researchers got a a quantum computer to solve a search while the computer itself was in a super position of not even running, is another such example #ni-1 There's also enmeshed particles, where a change to one is reflected/mirrored in the other, rather instantaniously as if the time/space between the 2 particles (though this is theoretical) does not matter/is non-existent, or perhaps more accurately (though this is all supposition here) irrelavent to the particles themselves. Now to create logic (software) which functions here, as it differs from the world/physics we've come to know/experience/are used to thinking in terms of?

Of course a lot of this, is itself research being worked on by those in fields other then the one this person would be working in.... But the implications is essentially that people are being forced to adapt to allow further technological progress. Sandia National Labs (used to live in Albuquerque, so knew some of the employees there) was working on an answer to this. Three possible replacements, optical computers, quantum computers, and a third were all being considered. There's others also working on the problem; but the gist of it is, that to get around this problem and allow progress to continue, a solution is needed, and this could well result in some changes to the basic technology which goes into the computers we use. Heat is definitely a problem, and one that isn't going away on it's own (though efforts have been made to push it back, so a solution the basic problem isn't needed as quickly).

But beyond whatever technological shifts we might have to take (as prior courses of action were hitting a point where they could be evolved "in that direction" no further); there's some of the questions Musoka was asking. And with images such as the replicators in Stargate SG-1/Atlantis, movies such as Terminator, and what not in entertainment, and sort of on the consciousness of mankind, they won't simply go away with "I'm the expert, how dare anyone question". Even geneticists realize there's moral issues tied in with genetic engineering that must be addressed and can not be simply side stepped with a condescending attitude. They also know that genetics has been mis-used; the Eugenics programs of their predecessors, and a history it left which is not one to be proud of for instance.... And they fully admit to it as well...

If we developed the means to create cellular life, and beyond through use of nano-technology where we could assemble organic structures from the atomic level; should we attempt to create a human body, and somehow infuse an artificially created organism with life? If it was biologcally different from organisms in the ecosystem, what would be the environmental impacts (this being not just genetic engineering, but constructing whole new organisms from the atom up with no pre-existing DNA at all). That sort of thing... This would be no less controversial then setting as goal, creating a living, thinking consciousness, in machine... And if it was "off in a dark box", what would be it's impressions of it's creators who left it imprisoned? Implications?

The fact is, we don't know.... And it isn't a matter of having a degree be it in computers, psychiatry and neuroscience, or whatever... We're talking about applying something (from their stated objectives) so far beyond the realm of what exists today; human knowledge as a whole hasn't "hit that point". Then there's the other possibility.... It's a load of bull well beyond what can forseeably be done, and so why the attitude.
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