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Work Stoppage @ Seti
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BlkJack-21
Grunt
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Work Stoppage @ Seti Reply with quote

Hello Everyone,

Our team (SETI.USA) is organizing a work stoppage @Seti (actually suspend network activity..still crunch, but not report) for a week effective 00:00 UTC 6/4/06 due to latest developments at seti, including what has happened w/Crunch3r. We are asking for your support.

This is an excerpt of what we will be posting on Seti's MB..
"Because of the present climate here at Seti, specifically the alienation and vilification of this projects top producers, we have decided to go on Strike for a period of ONE WEEK, in support of Crunch3r, and in protest of the lowered credit multiplier. The level of participation will vary, depending upon each participant’s desire. Some of us will simply disable our network access. Others, I understand, are going to detach from the project entirely, and either join other projects, or simply shut their machines down."

Even if you disagree about our position on the credit system. It is an outrage how Crunch3r has been treated and we would like your support.

Thanks for your time!
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KWSN imcrazynow
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Joined: 15 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do the rest of you KNi!ghts think about this one. I did notice that crunch3r's page on gunther(or something like that) is no longer there. I missed it a couple of days ago. Anybody know what's up? Confused
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And a few that won't update for some reason.

4870 GPU
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Elwood
Knight
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Joined: 21 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still crunching and not reporting doesn't make any sense as a form of protest. There's no actual impact from such an action, as all the work still gets done. Some of us only connect once a week anyway.

If there's going to be a protest, it's going to have to be a full-on, agreed upon boycott for several weeks, and the teams are going to have to agree to the pull-out in good faith.

Really though, I don't know that SETI is to blame and I'm not sure their project should be hurt if they aren't directly responsible.
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BlkJack-21
Grunt
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crunch3r has asked us to wait on our proposed strike.

He is currently communicating w/Rom and Dr. Anderson. We should hear something from Crunch3r early next week.

Thanks!
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Son Goku
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crunch3r has made a mighty contribution to the project with his optomized app, and the extra work this allows.

That said, I don't get this "do the work but not report it". Only if enough people did this, would a quorum fail to be reached on a WU. However:

- I don't see the sense in downloading and crunching WUs to not report them. In that case one gets no credit for the time their CPU spent crunching something.

If someone is upset, just moving their resource share to another project would seem more productive in that regard...

- I'm not really one to download work, with the intention of not reporting it. Just doesn't seem, well entirely proper to me...
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A/C
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Work Stoppage @ Seti Reply with quote

BlkJack-21 wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Our team (SETI.USA) is organizing a work stoppage @Seti (actually suspend network activity..still crunch, but not report) for a week effective 00:00 UTC 6/4/06 due to latest developments at seti, including what has happened w/Crunch3r. We are asking for your support.



I'm in this for the science, NO THANKS.
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A/C
Baron
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imcrazynow wrote:
What do the rest of you KNi!ghts think about this one.


I'm against it. It's like blackmail.
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jonnyv
Happy Fun Admin
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emphatically NO!
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KWSN - Sir Brian C.......
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like the way Crunch3r was treated....

BUT

I din't think a strike/boycott is the answer

ask yourself this....

why are you in this DC stuff, science or bragging rights?

my answer science

answer

No to strikes.
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ToeBee
KWSN Castellan
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Joined: 30 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. There is way too much stuff to wade through here and I don't think I will even attempt to read every post on the subject however unless I am missing an important one somewhere I see no evidence of any intentional wrongdoing by project staff. It seems one of the devs forgot to check some changes into CVS and that caused some confusion on version numbers. I think every programmer has made this mistake at one time or another. Aside from that all I see is participants who are quick to judge and slow to forgive. I was really surprised that Tony (mmciastro) came out with such a strong accusation against crunch3r. I have known him to be fairly reasonable most of the time and very helpful on several projects. Crunch3r has also made enormous contributions to seti and it is very sad to see him go. However that is his choice based on the treatment he received from a fellow user/contributer.

The only people who will be negatively affected by a strike are the seti@home developers/administrators. And as I said above, I don't see any intentional error or wrongdoing on their part in this issue. So I am rather confused as to what this strike is supposed to accomplish.
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ToeBee
KWSN Castellan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it seems the crunch3r issue is no longer the cause for the strike. After many posts asking why exactly the strike was now taking place, Steve Akers of seti.usa actually posted 6 reasons for the strike but then took them down a short time later and said "We will post a formal list of requests very soon." That was several hours ago and nothing so far. The main point seemed to be something about the RAC of those people using an optimized client before seti_enhanced was introduced. They feel like their RAC has gone down too much since enhanced has come out. Another complaint was the bugginess of enhanced as well as an error in the splitters that has already been taken care of as far as I know. Guess we'll wait for the "official" list before breaking out our secret word on them but it all still seems very silly to me.

Someone also discovered that people who have donated money to seti@home can request that their donation be refunded so several of those going on strike are doing this as well. This is even sillier! A lot of the problems that have happened on seti are at least partially to blame on lack of funding so to rovoke donations and then demand that the problems be fixed seems positively stupid to me.

Oh well. Let them cast aside their shrubberies. We will gladly take them up. It seems we are the only ones who truly believe that every shrubbery is sacred!

#ni-1
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Dagger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. If they all stop shrubbing, all that means to us is that we get even closer to the Holy Grail.
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alpha_fruit
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't run Seti, I am doing Rosetta for now, good luck to you guys running it. May you all bloom profusely. #ni-1
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Elwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Demands" are up:

Quote:
1.) Crunch3r, who has been instrumental in developing optimized applications for Seti and Seti Enhanced, was accused of cheating by some of the forum members, and had also sent Eric Korpela an email with a list of C++ errors in the standard Seti Enhanced application, that were eliminated when he built version of the Enhanced application WITHOUT optimization. Eric had denied receiving this email, and even went so far as to call Crunch3r a LIAR. Crunch3r sent this email to Eric TWICE, and has proof that Eric received the second email. Thus, Crunch3r has left the project, and is no longer working to develop Seti code any further. This alienation and vilification of this project's top contributors needs to stop. Eric has since made an apology, but it is buried deep in one of the threads. We request that Eric issue this apology in a new "Sticky" thread, and that the thread be reserved for a dialog between Eric and Crunch3r to work out their differences. Crunch3r has done SO MUCH for this project, and his loss hurts EVERYONE. All effort should be made to reenlist Crunch3r's help to get the Enhanced application working for EVERYONE.

2.) The application errors in the code are causing countless hours of wasted CPU cycles. The application crashes out or gets -9 overflow errors MANY hours into workunit processing. This results in no credit being granted at ALL for such workunits. Thus, we request an application that does not waste our CPU cycles by going into a seemingly endless loop.

3.) There have been many discussions on what is "Fair Credit" for the work we perform. Since credit IS important to a large number of participants, we request that this situation be investigated sooner, rather than later. Perhaps looking into a system that takes into consideration the TOTAL amount of work done, and not just the FPOPS.

4.) Being as that "some" of the forum moderators are doing more to feed the flames rather than to help extinguish them, we request perhaps a complete sweep of the forum mods with all mods elected by forum members.

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Cohiba
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear lord why is this CRAP spilling onto our forum. I could give a rats ass about the cry babies over on the seti forums. There all imature brats who only care about there post count there little green star, and thier RAC.

No i do not support a work stopage or report stopage of any kind.

GROW UP PEOPLE!!

If Crunch3r wants to take his toys and go home let HIM!! Someone else will either fill the gap. As it is i'm unsure of those OPTOMISED clients.
INMHO only seti should be writing the clients, that way everyone gets the same credit and does the same work.
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Elwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right (about bring crap here, not necessarily optimized apps.) Sorry for bringing it. It's been like a car crash that I couldn't look away from, but now it looks more like idiots crashing their cars on purpose to draw attention to themselves, entirely unaware that someone might get hurt.
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KWSN - Sir Brian C.......
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not condoning anything in this post but here's an interesting set of Graphs.

they're the number of users & hosts in in rosetta, notice the sudden increase in the last few days?

http://www.boincstats.com/stats/project_graph1.php?pr=rosetta&table=users

http://www.boincstats.com/stats/project_graph1.php?pr=rosetta&table=hosts


whereas the Einstein growth is remaining pretty normal

http://www.boincstats.com/stats/project_graph1.php?pr=einstein&table=users

http://www.boincstats.com/stats/project_graph1.php?pr=einstein&table=hosts

#ni-1 #ni-1
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KWSN - Sir Brian C.......
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Prince


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Location: Judea, AD33, at a stoning with me mum.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well it looks like the Rosetta guy's don't seem to care about SETI's problems at the moment

http://www.kwsnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6493

Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused

not so sure if that's a good thing but I suppose from their viewpoint the more the merrier.


Problems is, is what kind of person are you getting, someone who bitches about the credits and doesn't really care about the science, that's who.

Confused Confused Confused Confused Confused

#ni-1
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Sir Hamster of Elderberry
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sir BlkJack-21,

The suggestion to strike is simply inappropriate. I have much better ways to spend my time, and I'm pretty sure you do too. Find a constructive way to support crunch3r instead.
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Son Goku
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, if they want to crunch for Rosseta, that's fine; given CASP 7, they can use more crunch time. Though 2 notes on this:

1. There are no optomized apps for Rosseta, and given no quorum, they will get what they claim. However,

2. Some people have been caught RAC cheating, per (I think it was Moderator9's mention). Lets just say that those accounts don't exist anymore, and those users had been banned from the project, as I understand it.

Though Rossetta does want more crunchers, there are obviously, some things they don't want on their project Wink
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