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crunch3r's enhanced 5.12 app released

 
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Son Goku
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: crunch3r's enhanced 5.12 app released Reply with quote

For anyone who's run SETI, but wants the crunch3r optimized science app, crunch3r has not got the enhanced optimized out for both Windows, and he announced on the SETI board for Linux also. He's working on the freeBSD variant now. Here's the link for his site

http://www.guntec.de/Crunch3r/

BTW, looking at the new app.xml file that's on their site, it looks to have entries for both the older 4.18/4.11 app as well as enhanced. Having the older crun3r app, I just grabbed the 5.12 enhanced, and then applied the new .xml file to the projects folder. So far, so good. Someone that doesn't have the old crunch3r app might want to grab it also, just in case, though I suspect those old style WUs had dried up. The .xml does list it along with enhanced however...
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A Shrubbery
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cleaned out my Seti cache, deleted all the optimized application files and allowed it to download more work. One guess what I got... 15 files of the original Seti. Guess I'll be running the old optimized app for a bit longer.
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah some of their splitters are still producing work for the old version. Eventually those will be phased out though.
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Elwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been able to get any Enhanced work yet either. Oh well, it's not like there's no point in doing the old stuff.
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Son Goku
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing is that all the WUs I got were enhanced...

One note on credit however, one will get less it seems if they used crunch3r, though credits were increased when it moved out of beta to be on par to what people got with the standard app.

The credits I've gotten so far are about 30-35 per unit, claimed and gotten. However it takes a little over 2 hours with the crunch3r optimized app (vs. I was seeing 12-16 hours when it was in beta).

Now, on the old WUs with crunch3r I was also getting about 19-35 credits per unit, but only taking 44 minutes to complete, not 125 minutes or so... So far, I'm looking at about a .8 AR on the WUs, and angle range of course will effect running time and credit granting quite a bit. I think I read they're still trying to iron that detail out in the beta project, for an enhanced 5.13 (they testing) release or something... Just a heads up, for fellow crunchers here Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Son Goku wrote:


The credits I've gotten so far are about 30-35 per unit, claimed and gotten. However it takes a little over 2 hours with the crunch3r optimized app (vs. I was seeing 12-16 hours when it was in beta).

Whew, I thought my puter was screwed! My crunch times are 12-16 Hrs. as well.
Is crunch3rs app pretty easy to install and run and do you need the app info file too? Also, what order should the be installed if if both are needed?
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well technically you should get less credit when using an optimized app. The theory behind BOINC credit is that your computer will get x credits/hr of CPU time regardless of what application is running. Of course the faster your CPU is the more "x" will be. In practice you do generate more credit with an optimized client since any given work unit may be sent to users who aren't using an optimized app.

Anyway... yes it is easy to install. You just download the zip file, stop boinc, unzip the files into the projects/setiathome.whatever/ directory and restart boinc. I'm not entirely sure how it works if you have an old optimized client as well. However I am waiting for a while until all the "wrinkles" get "ironed out" since I'm not in a beta testing mood at the moment. Laughing
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Elwood
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe SETI Enhanced is basing credit solely on the number of FLOPS per shrub, so one can only stand to gain from using an optimized app that will get more WU's done in the same amount of time. It will no longer matter whether other users are crunching optimized or not, as any given WU should give the same credit regardless of what type of machine, how long it took or the application used.
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IcaBoD
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just tried running the Crunch3r Seti enhanced client with the TruxSoft Optimized Boinc app and kaboom!! I got error messages I didn't even know existed. Shocked

Is there a timeline for phasing out the old WU's with the new enhanced version? I will continue to test different client/app combo's and post the most efficient I've found.
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A Shrubbery
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard a couple weeks batted around, but normally switches take a month or two to finally get pushed through. Or if you remember when boinc started, months.
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Son Goku
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One should get more credit using an optimized app for one reason. Code optimizations means one gets more work done (same as if one had a faster computer). In fact, the whole idea of flop (floating point operations) counting, is that one gets credit per operation, not how optimized it is.

To put it simply, the op of 2 * 2 = 4, counts as 1 operation, and would represent 1 bit of credit. Now if someone figures out that on CPU x, it's faster to do repetitive additions, which could be done lets say in a for () loop, (aka add 2, twice), rather then invoke a multiplication operation, it's still the same amount of work done, still got the same result, and one should still get as much credit, even though they could do it faster. Same applies if one figures out in the above, that the same could be applied by a bit operation, aka with the number 2 in binary

00000010

by left shifting the bits, one gets

00000100

which is 4 in decimal. Such bit wise operations are really fast, but still the result is the same, and the actual work done (contribution to science is the same). So yes, using an optimized app over time, one should get more credits total with an optimized app, because one can complete the same work (same as with faster computers), in less time. More work crunched in x period time == more contribution to science, more work done overall...

Just gave a heads up to people, who might be interested in knowing that from what I'm seeing, there is now the same amount of credit in about 2x+ longer crunch times... Tis all #ni-1

Anyhow, there is an app_info.xml file to install, but it's not difficult at all. The .xml file is pre-created for you right on crunch3r's site, so all you have to do is extract the .zip file into the BOINC project folder. It's the same exact location that the optimized app goes to...
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the old optimized clients made some major changes to the code so it actually performed fewer operations per work unit. Hence my opinion that optimized clients should claim less credit per work unit than the regular client. However since they do them faster the end result is still more total credit. Now the default client includes these code changes and the "optimized" clients are just compiled for specific CPUs to take advantage of things like SSE. I suppose in this case the should claim about the same as the default client.

I suppose in the end it really doesn't matter anyway. Work gets done, credit gets assigned, people are happy Smile
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Son Goku
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MacG wrote:
Well the old optimized clients made some major changes to the code so it actually performed fewer operations per work unit. Hence my opinion that optimized clients should claim less credit per work unit than the regular client.


Umm, the clients do nothing wrt the actual crunching whatsoever. The client is just a scheduling app pretty much, that determines what runs, does the benchmark, holds communication, etc...

As to the optimized science app, whether it is a difference in the number of ops done, which it does not have to be, as all ops do not take an equal number of clock cycles to complete on a given CPU, which is exactly why I pointed out a multiplication op, vs a bit wise opp like shifting bits.

Given a CPU works in base 2 (binary), any multiplication by 2, is really a left shift of the bits, and division by 2 (or multiplication by 1/2) is a right shifting of the bits... Not also, that this is supported in mathematical number systems, where shifting a number one place to the left is the equivalent of multiplying that number by it's base. In decimal for instance, the difference between 9 or 9*10, aka 90, is simply a place holder (shifting the place one to the left)... In this case, it is simply a computer programmer being smart enough to realize that (on CPU x, it is capable of performing said operation (such as a bit shift, for the sake of argument) in say 1 clock, rather then taking 5 clocks (for say a multiply operation) to through out an arbitrary numbers out...

CPUs themselves are not equally efficient in performing every operation, and this is preciesely one of the facts Intel obscured from the buying public when they had their PR push for "clock is everything". Clock is not everything, and CPU efficiency (aka how many clocks it takes to perform a single operation) is not the same accross the board, even within the exact same CPU for each op it's capable of performing. Programmers, such as John Carmack are aware of this, so for instance will hand code embeded assembler language into their C++ in certain specific situations, where for instance in Carmack's case it will help improve the performance of his game. People who design database software can look at much the same thing, as not all search algorithms are the same, a bubble sort for instance being one of the worst being an exponential algorithm... Those writting science apps, can look at much the same thing, as it's advantegious to get the result in 2 days, rather then 2 months if one can Very Happy

Quote:
Now the default client includes these code changes and the "optimized" clients are just compiled for specific CPUs to take advantage of things like SSE. I suppose in this case the should claim about the same as the default client.


Which is exactly what can happen with some of the optimizations (or what I was describing above), when one looks at the optimized Einstein app from Askof... In fact, Askof's optimized app gives greater precision then the default optimized app, so is in fact both faster and more precise in the results it generates. That greater precision, for instance with akosf's app, is supplying results of greater scientific significance, along with the speed boost.

In any case, I wasn't in anyway slamming fpops counting or whatever else, which I've also recommended on some boards. Just making a general comment to fellow crunchers based upon my own observations thus far, that for an equal amount of work done, fewer credits have been seen (for those who used crunch3r in both cases) now vs then. I'm not talking just claimed here, but granted also Smile Tis all, actually #ni-1
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