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[CJ] Just give me the facts, m'am
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KWSN None shall pass
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

now i REALLY wanna see an elephant jump

BAD...

i gotta go to the circus this weekend
nebody know where theres a circus on the US east coast??? this weekend
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KWSN None shall pass
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also beleive there r other thingys on here that ARN't RIGHT

some of dat shtuff is not real
like some of it isn't factual... where did they get that hurricane thing?

10 mins of huricane = all the nukes on the earth???? now a hurricane is an EXTREMELY powerful thing... but not all the nukes on the earth...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWSN None shall pass wrote:
... 10 mins of huricane = all the nukes on the earth???? now a hurricane is an EXTREMELY powerful thing... but not all the nukes on the earth...


I'm not so sure, hurricanes are BIG. I think it's more a problem of just how you make the comparison.

Darn, now I'm thinking about how to do this when I have other things waiting ... hate it when this happens. Wink

ni! i!u
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More on elephants...


Why does an elephant have 4 feet?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Because 6 inches just won't do!

Shocked Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have two feet Shocked .
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fart in your gen direxion wrote:
I have two feet Shocked .


I always thought you an ass... and now you admit it...

Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Hamster of Elderberry wrote:
KWSN None shall pass wrote:
... 10 mins of huricane = all the nukes on the earth???? now a hurricane is an EXTREMELY powerful thing... but not all the nukes on the earth...


I'm not so sure, hurricanes are BIG. I think it's more a problem of just how you make the comparison.

Darn, now I'm thinking about how to do this when I have other things waiting ... hate it when this happens. Wink

ni! i!u


Methinks thou wilt findeth that yonder hurricaine beateth the smeg outta the nukes.... NOT!

Its all a question of energy.... Let us assume for the sake of argument that there are 10000 warheads out there with an avg. of 1 megaton each... thats 10000 megatons.

One megaton is about 10^15 joules.

so thats 10000 x 10^15 or 10^19 joules.

A medium sized hurricaine is worth about 10^15 joules...

But...

There is a natural event of comparable power....

A volcano...

Krakatoa was also worth 10^19 joules... Not sure, but i think that Mt. St. H. was bigger...

Source http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html
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KWSN None shall pass
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think maybe we're underestimating the power of the some of the nuclear weapons that we have here... now a volcano like mt. st. helens is more like it but STILL...

Mt. St. Helens explosion blew the side of a mountain off.... well thats a lot of power... but ALL THE NUKES ON EARTH....

still don't beleive... either those conversions r a farce, or the calculation of the natural disasters are BS, or we underestimate that there are 10000 nukes with the average nrg of 1 megaton...
not sure but i'm leanin towards the second (from what majorkong says, a hurricane = 1 average sized nuke- don't know if i beleive that)... i mean how do you calculate... and even so... for how long? are they talkin about average hurricanes? and if so... the entire? in either case i beleive we proved that that portion is false. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that table says:

Atomic Bomb (Hiroshima) 10^14
100-megaton H-bomb 10^17
Fission one ton of Uranium 10^17

other BS calculations...
Energy to create Meteor Crater in Arizona 10^16
Hurricane 10^15
Thunderstorm 10^15
Energy to put the space shuttle in orbit 10^13
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I'm folding at my house (folding at home). Trying ever so diligently to get as menny points as millenium knight does in one week. WISH ME LUCK! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You missed one:

Gastronomcal distress of Sir Fart after dining at Mama Conchita's all-you-can-eat-bean-burrito-blow-out-buffet 10^20 Shocked

Sad

Embarassed
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWSN None shall pass wrote:
that table says:

Atomic Bomb (Hiroshima) 10^14
100-megaton H-bomb 10^17
Fission one ton of Uranium 10^17

other BS calculations...
Energy to create Meteor Crater in Arizona 10^16
Hurricane 10^15
Thunderstorm 10^15
Energy to put the space shuttle in orbit 10^13


You REALLY want me to break out the old slide rule and do the calcs myself to check if they is bullshit?

fookin triple integrals.......... #evil
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Last edited by MajorKong on Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only one of those that seems odd is the hurricane vs thunderstorm pair.

I'd also suggest breaking out your 48GX rather than the slide rule Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnyv wrote:
The only one of those that seems odd is the hurricane vs thunderstorm pair.

I'd also suggest breaking out your 48GX rather than the slide rule Razz


nahh... i did it with pencil and paper...

ok..

1 megaton of TNT = 4.17 x 10^19 J... so the table is wrong on that one by a couple of orders of magnitude....

BUT... I did a VERY back-of-the-envelope calculation for the energy of a hurricaine....



Shocked Shocked Shocked

Assuming 100 mile radius, and peak winds of 100 mph.... 50000 feet tall...
counting the two most significant contributers to the total energy of the system... the molecular velocity, and the rotational velocity of the system.... I get a VERY suprising value...

Energy of the avg. hurricaine ~ 1.223 x 10^21 J....

So just on instanteanous energy, the avg. hurricaine is equivalent to about a 30 MT H-bomb....

Far cry from the entire world's nuke arsenal, but still suprising, considering the standard loadout for a B-52 is one 30 MT and one 20 MT H-bomb...

order 10^15 J is about right, imo, for a T-Storm... but they fooked up on the nukes and the hurricaines.... both values are WAY low... on the nukes, i THINK they must have forgotten to convert the MeV to eV before using the conversion factor to J....

But with a volcano... they are gonna be WAY low..... an explosive eruption is gonna score WAY higher.. Krakatoa vaporized, basically, an entire mountain... something that would take an AWFULLY big nuke...

hmm... the volume of a fustrum of a cone.... gotta think on this one a bit.... specific heat of 'rock'..... hmm... get back to ya on this one.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Sir Kong , you forgot about the "Surge" water .
Againn very rough calcs :
This might be a 4 metre roughly conical rise , with a diameter of ~ 160 kilometres , moving at ~ 50 Mph !! (80 Kph) (Volume = 0.5 x 4 x π x (80,000 x 80,000 ^2) cubic metres )
Errm ~ 40 x 10^9 cubic metres at 80 Kph Shocked
1/2 mv^2 (or some such - you are better at this than me Very Happy )

NOT a small number (~9.9 x 10^18 j) - just the sea water !!! (at any one moment)

Now add in precipitation , unknown (at least by me) but roughly a rainfall of 5 cm/hr not unrealistic . (Not just falling but driven by winds of up to 160 Kph .)
Errm - over what area does the this rain fall ? Say 0.5 of storm radius .
Then , how long the duration of the storm ? Say minimum 48 hrs ?
This represents ~2.5 metres of 1 cm square columbs (*) of water falling over EVERY square cm of ~ 20,000 square kilometres in 48 hrs .

Errmmm rain mass ~ 5 x 10^18 gms .
Ahh , errmm , 2.5 x 10^21 j anyone ? (Just the rain over 48 hrs )
At any one moment , PE of falling water is ~ 8.6 x 10^17 j , asuming storm peak .


Now you can add the wind vel and heat stuff .

Regds Grizz. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

u can do all that but u can't get the volume of a frustrum of a cone?

Griz: maybe he calculated that into the equation to begin with, im sure he calculated the winds of an AVERAGE storm... you also have to look at the amount of energy used in 10 minutes, plus i beleive the rain would be about 1.5-2 of storm radius is rainfall area (maybe not... depending on what you consider the boundaries of the hurricane) i think with kong's 100 mi radius, it would be about 1.5-2x that. maybe not easy to look up i jus don't have the time

but yes majorkong, it does seem that it would be a far cry from the worlds nukes... and that is also why i look at the nrg of the volcano, i also compared to how powerful a nuke it would require to vaporize a mountain Smile

majorkong wrote:
Far cry from the entire world's nuke arsenal, but still suprising, considering the standard loadout for a B-52 is one 30 MT and one 20 MT H-bomb...

Shocked Shocked Shocked i didn't know they put nukes on b52s.... i thought they only put em on the stealthythingamajobs (b2 right?)... unless they r gonna use it specifically on da b52

do u mean to tell me that the standard armament of a b52 is 2 nukes???
Shocked Shocked Shocked wow
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWSN None shall pass wrote:
u can do all that but u can't get the volume of a frustrum of a cone?

Griz: maybe he calculated that into the equation to begin with, im sure he calculated the winds of an AVERAGE storm... you also have to look at the amount of energy used in 10 minutes, plus i beleive the rain would be about 1.5-2 of storm radius is rainfall area (maybe not... depending on what you consider the boundaries of the hurricane) i think with kong's 100 mi radius, it would be about 1.5-2x that. maybe not easy to look up i jus don't have the time

but yes majorkong, it does seem that it would be a far cry from the worlds nukes... and that is also why i look at the nrg of the volcano, i also compared to how powerful a nuke it would require to vaporize a mountain Smile

majorkong wrote:
Far cry from the entire world's nuke arsenal, but still suprising, considering the standard loadout for a B-52 is one 30 MT and one 20 MT H-bomb...

Shocked Shocked Shocked i didn't know they put nukes on b52s.... i thought they only put em on the stealthythingamajobs (b2 right?)... unless they r gonna use it specifically on da b52

do u mean to tell me that the standard armament of a b52 is 2 nukes???
Shocked Shocked Shocked wow


The cone volume was for figuring volcano energy...

I dont know what they load on B-52's nowadays.... BUT, I am a child of the Cold War against the gawdless commie bastard ruskies... Back then, the standard loadout of a nuke-equipped B-52 was one 30MT and one 20MT h-bomb. You got ANY idea how big a bucket of whoop-ass that is?????

To put it in perspective, the 2 A-bombs that we dropped on Japan in WWII were in the 10-20 KT range... assuming 20KT, the smaller of the 2 B-52-carried H-Bombs is 1000 times stronger... So. we are talking about, carried in just 1 B-52. bombs eqivalent to 1500x the destructive force of BOTH A-bombs we dropped on Japan during WWII....

And don't complain about 1 B-52 not carrying more... Them H-Bombs are fsckin HUGE, and the 2 of them were about all a B-52 could lift... The H-Bombs on ICBM's are much smaller (biggest nowadays is in the 1-5 MT class, and the MIRV loadouts are usually about 1MT... TOTAL)... Interesting fact... The Saturn booster used in the Apollo program was NOT designed initially as a booster for the manned space program, but as an ICBM designed to loft 100-MT class H-Bombs.. Think about how huge-ass the Saturn V was...

Now, I ain't advocating going and nuke-ing ANYBODY... Them things should NEVER be used unless some damn-fool shit-for-brains pops one on the US first.. It was the threat of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) that kept the peace worldwide (except for a couple of minor hot-spots) during the Cold War, and incidently, is the reason you aren't forced to learn russian or chinese today instead of your native language.

The world was actually a much safer place back during the Cold War... We kept our 'boys' in line... the ruskies kept THEIR 'boys' in line... and both the US and the USSR managed to stare down the chi-comms. The three main powers (and all their boys - client states) DARED NOT start any major shit.. cause NOONE wanted the world to turn into a radioactive cinder. We had a few local hot-spots... Korea... Vietnam... but nothing really global in context. They were dangerous, all right... but none of the three Powers dared esclate them beyond a certain point...

Nowadays, with a vanishing nuclear threat, the minor twerps of the world's nations (Iraq, Iran, N. Korea, etc.) are becoming increasing bold in stirring up trouble. We have managed to put the smackdown on Iraq... for now... but are finding it increasingly difficult to continue to protect the West from external aggression. In the old days of the MAD TRIAD (ICBMs, SLBMs, and nuke bombers) we could afford to have a rather small conventional force.. But since St. Ronald bankrupted the USSR, we are having increasing need of conventional forces, and they aren't there.. Most of the citizens of the US (as well as virtually all the citizens of the rest of the West) just fail to comprehend the need, and would rather spend money (ie. buying the votes of) feeding, clothing, and otherwise being a fsckin nanny to the LAZY. Europe (and the rest of the West) needs to step up and start shouldering a greater part of the burden of their self defense. We are gonna need our troops elsewhere in the not-to-distant future.

History shows us (and those who refuse its lessons are doomed to repeat its mistakes) that Appeasement of dictators and evil men does NOT work. Chamberlain vs. Hitler, anyone?? History also teaches us that Diplomacy does not work unless you have a great, big stick in your hand and the percieved willingness to use it. Those in Europe that tried to forbid our use of the 'Stick' in the latest conflict in Iraq actually FORCED us to use it. A united front against Sodamn Insane just might have forced him out, without a war...

I call upon people worldwide, to sit down and think about this, and to remember the GREAT sacrifice the USA made during the 20th century to keep many/most of them out of the clutches of evil men. In the past, we have been there to help you escape the clutches of dictators into the light of freedom... Next time, we may not be able to help... The Russian (one of the latest peoples we have helped into freedom) military is a shadow of its former USSR self, and is barely up to the task of self-defense, let alone foreign adventures.. The military of the PRC is part of the problem, not the solution.. You freedom-loving people worldwide need to start getting ready to handle your own defense, for we cannot continue to help you, our friends, indefinitely without some some help and cooperation from those of you whose freedom we are securing and defending. Whats-his-name was right.. The USA CANNOT 'go it alone' for very long.

To those of you in Europe and elsewhere that feel that THEY and not the USA should be calling the shots *cough*France&Germany*cough*.... Bring more men and equipment to the table... As long as the USA provides virtually ALL the men, weapons, and money for these NECESSARY operations, it is only right and proper that we call the shots. And please, don't look to the UN for help... It is nothing but a debateing society that seems to endlessly sit around jawing and jacking-off. Besides, Free Nations need to preserve their national soverignty. Remember, much of the UN seems to be controlled by the evil men that we struggle against. Only in the UN Security Council does Freedom have a chance to prosper, and even there The Free are threatened by those who would rather play political games against us.

Remember, the USA does NOT want 'empire'... We long for nothing more than a return to the peaceful, semi-isolated days that preceeded the events of the 1910's which FORCED us to take part in the defense of Freedom in the rest of the world. We want nothing more than a peaceful world of free peoples, wherein we can engage in commerce. The events which followed that mad Serbians gunshots in Sarajevo, combined with a massive outbreak of head-in-ass disease amoung the govts. of Europe created the situtation we have today.

The assassination of the Austrian Arch-Duke -> WWI
WWI -> the collapse of the Czarist Govt. in Russia.
WWI -> a VERY inequitable peace treaty for Germany.
WWI -> Europe re-draws map in Middle East.
Collapse of Czarist govt in russia -> Successful rise of Communism in Russia.
Bad peace treaty in Europe -> Rise of Nazi-ism.
Nazi-ism -> WWII.
WWII -> continued success of communism in USSR, and spread to China.
Successful communism in USSR and PRC -> Korean War... Vietnam War... Cold War.
WWI, WWII, Cold War -> USA, forced by circumstance, takes leadership position of free world.
Badly re-drawn map of Middle East -> Arab-Israeli wars... Iran-Iraq war.. Gulf War I... Rise of global terrorism...
Cold War -> defeat of communism in USSR by St. Ronnie.
Defeat of communism in USSR -> unleashing of former 'client states' on all three sides to cause much grief and mischief in the world.
Defeat of communism in USSR -> USA and PRC left as world's only super-powers... Europe feels left out...
Europe's being 'ignored' -> French, Germans, and Russians piss in Uncle Sam's wheatie bowl, causing Gulf War II.


So, we get to today.... Without desireing to be so, but instead forced to by the above chain of circumstance, the USA is the leader of the Free World, vs. the PRC leading the Axis of Evil. Much of Europe relies on the USA for defense, and uses the 'saved' money to construct huge, virtually bankrupt welfare states. Most of the rest of the world has gone to hell in a handbasket. The USA is left feeling used and betrayed by Europe. Europe wants to be a 'player' again, and feels that trying to give the USA the shaft is the best way to go about it. The Axis of Evil spreads because Europe obstructs the USA's efforts to stop it, and Europe has no means of replacing the USA in the struggle for a peaceful, free world. Yep... this old world is in a sorry state indeed.

The solution? European Govts need to pull their heads outta their asses, and quit demonizing the USA as being 'bent on empire'. The European govts. need to abandon their OWN plans and designs on regaining their lost EMPIRE (remember folks, European Govts. HAD Empire(s) once upon a time, and long for them again). The USA and Europe need to work together in pursuit of the goal of a totally Free, peaceful world. When the world is finally, and totally, truely Free, then we can all sit down and enjoy peace. This time has not yet arrived.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I disagree with you Sir Kong , but , errm , is this not slightly off topic ?
Please get back to the Energy output of a hurricane over 10 Mins Very Happy (or a frustrated cone)
(Jeesh - correcting a (THE) Mod Shocked Shocked Very Happy )

If not , I shall point you in the direction or Scalar and quantum Gravity Theorums (*) and make you read and read and read . (Probly a good idea anyhows , as we never finished that "Black Hole" thing - my fault Embarassed )

Best Regds Grizz .
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Congrats to MK for putting to words some of the (only slightly)coherant(?SP?)idea's that was wandering loose inside my head.I'm not as aged as the MK... Laughing ...and don't remember First Hand some of the events mentioned...but I agree completly with his decription of events and the results of those events ! Cool

1 hurricane = 1 avg. nuke..../me dosent care about the details Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grizzly wrote:
Not that I disagree with you Sir Kong , but , errm , is this not slightly off topic ?
Please get back to the Energy output of a hurricane over 10 Mins Very Happy (or a frustrated cone)
(Jeesh - correcting a (THE) Mod Shocked Shocked Very Happy )

If not , I shall point you in the direction or Scalar and quantum Gravity Theorums (*) and make you read and read and read . (Probly a good idea anyhows , as we never finished that "Black Hole" thing - my fault Embarassed )

Best Regds Grizz .


I did get a little off topic there, didn't I?? Embarassed

But, anyway... where did the 10 minute figure enter? I am discussing the instanteanous energy...

If you wanna go for energy over time, the hurricaine wins hands down.... by MANY orders of magnitude.. remember, a nuke blast is, for all practical purposes, instanteanous.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sir Kong . I also was working on the "instantaneous" concept , but the original post said

"In 10 minutes, a hurricane releases more energy than all of the world's nuclear weapons combined."


Grizz tends at the moment to agree with this statement . ( More Bl**dy math Mad to prove/disprove this though - need less variables in size of hurricane , when/where the 10 mins duration is taken [appogee ? pedigree(*) ? Very Happy etc see below] .
Perhaps since the hurricane is solar (ie heat) + coriolis "force" (ie rotational energy of the earth) effects drivern , an examination of the ammount of solar energy falling over a given area with a suitable time element would give some indication of the ammount of energy input required to spawn a hurricane , and hence its (energy) dissipation over time .
I guess that sea temps and currents should also figure in there some where . I dunno Embarassed

I do enjoy these little "thinks" about something I have never considered before !
Some factors to consider - :

Energy required to evaporate the seawater required for a given ammount of precipitation . (And the action of the resultant more dense sea water "sinking" giving rise to another heat engine in operation )
Energy required to heat air mass to give pressure differential of ~ 1 inch mercury at the eye/edge .
Energy "stolen" from earth rotation to assist the "spin" of the storm . (location of storm important here) .
New/full moon Shocked Shocked (tides Very Happy ) .
Sea currents and direction and temperature of sea under/in path of storm .
Latent heat released from precipitation .
Wind velocity .
Temps .
Storm velocity/direction .
Heat given up/released to atmosphere by rising air mass .

Sir Kong you would know more about the total world arsenal of nukes than myself , so assume your figures here .

Your Turn !

Regds Grizz .
_________________
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Ps Grizz in his second childhood - but not his last !

Edihtor of the KoKC (excused spel;l checher'er)

AND NI !!! Tophat 10e

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