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JerWA
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that system is not going to be upgrade, it's going to become a file server. I was going to build another AMD to replace it, an X2 dual core rig, but after updating the $600 build post I may just go Core 2 hehe. At any rate, that system may get grumpy when it's stuffed full of hard drives, so the PSU may get upgraded after all.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerWA wrote:
Yeah, that system is not going to be upgrade, it's going to become a file server. I was going to build another AMD to replace it, an X2 dual core rig, but after updating the $600 build post I may just go Core 2 hehe. At any rate, that system may get grumpy when it's stuffed full of hard drives, so the PSU may get upgraded after all.


My 500 watt Ultra PSU (with the nifty cable set up where you plug in just the cables that you need) cost something ridiculous like $19.95 after rebate (and they actually sent the rebate). MicroCenter seems to like to run a good-quality PSU for a low price, pretty much all the time (as a loss leader, I guess).

As for the C2D, I'm not sure I'd have the heart to do that myself. Guess I'm too much of a dyed-in-the-wool AMD man. I'm also far too Scots to spend that kind of money. As fast as C2Ds are, I'm not convinced that they're a better deal as far as shrub/dollar.

Speaking of which, I upgraded my son's Sempron to an A64 3200+ Venice (socket 754) for $39 including 3 day shipping!

I have already scored an ABIT KV-80 mobo for less than $25 (including shipping) for the Sempron. I just have to find a couple of cheap sticks of DDR RAM. The mobo seems just perfect for a dedicated shrubber, as it's complete with onboard LAN and video. I just hope there' s Linux drivers for them, as that's the route I'm planning on taking.

The plan is to gut my POS IBM NetVista PIII box (which has a problem with hanging up, which I haven't been able to solve), upgrade the cooling, and put the ABIT mobo in there. I might even get away with the stock PSU.

They also have X2 Toledo 4400+ (1MBX2 L2 cache, heh, heh) CPUs for $140 including shipping. I just hope they still have them when I can get that kind of money together. The thermal power rating of these is something like 25% lower than the single core 3700+ San Diego I'm running now!

They're supposed to OC as readily as San Diegos as well. #ni-1

Naturally, once I get an X2 CPU, I'm going to start hunting for a mobo for the San Diego chip. I'll get an actual farm built yet.
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JerWA
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main reasons I think I'm going to stick to Core 2 is that:
1) They're already a step ahead of the current AMDs, and are due to release their next version right about the time AMD releases theirs (i.e. AMD will catch up with "now" just in time for "now" to move on again).
2) The low power consumption X2s do better than Core 2s at idle, but at full load the Core 2s are still more power efficient. Since none of my machines will ever be idle (BOINC!), the under-load power consumption is of more interest to me.
3) The Core2's love to overclock. So while they are expensive up front, the real dollar/performance ratio is still in Intels favor if you count overclocking.

Don't get me wrong, I was in the AMD camp for a long time. In fact, the last Intel I bought prior to my current Core 2 Duo E6400 was a P3 1GHz. The 4 systems in between the P3 and now were all AMD.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerWA wrote:
The main reasons I think I'm going to stick to Core 2 is that:
1) They're already a step ahead of the current AMDs, and are due to release their next version right about the time AMD releases theirs (i.e. AMD will catch up with "now" just in time for "now" to move on again).
2) The low power consumption X2s do better than Core 2s at idle, but at full load the Core 2s are still more power efficient. Since none of my machines will ever be idle (BOINC!), the under-load power consumption is of more interest to me.
3) The Core2's love to overclock. So while they are expensive up front, the real dollar/performance ratio is still in Intels favor if you count overclocking.

Don't get me wrong, I was in the AMD camp for a long time. In fact, the last Intel I bought prior to my current Core 2 Duo E6400 was a P3 1GHz. The 4 systems in between the P3 and now were all AMD.


Far be it from me to dispute most of what you say. I'm the first one to admit that my opinions on these matters aren't particularly qualified. Also, I would definitely look at a C2D under certain circumstances. Microcenter actually had some in stock for just over $110 when I was there the other day (they have a retail store in Denver), and ABIT tends to build 775 counterparts to their best AMD socket mobos.

I will say that I wouldn't count AMD out until they actually release their CPUs. Didn't we all think that Pentium 4s were "all that" until AMD blew them away with the A64?

I do find it kind of hard to believe that C2Ds are universally more efficient than AM2 A64s, when most of the latter are 65W and some are even 35W thermal power. I know that doesn't translate directly to electrical power consumption, and it should be a reasonable indication of efficiency.

The "sweet spot" for Socket 939 A64 was probably the ADV series 4400+ X2, which were sold out of NewEgg before I could get my hands on one. Mostly what I could find was overpriced ADA (110W vs 89W). There also seem to be lots of 3800+ X2s with the weak-suck 512k/core L2 cache.

I ended up ordering an Opteron 170 (socket 939 of course. If I was going to get a decent new mobo and new RAM, I would look at AM2 or C2D), because that seemed to be the best price performance at NewEgg. The good news is all Optys are 1MB X2 L2 cache. The bad news is the thermal rating is almost as high as my San Diego.

Incidentally, the Opty 185 disappeared between Monday night and Tuesday morning. I was considering the 180 until I started reading reviews, and realized that the 170 will probably OC at least as high as my San Diego, except with two cores and twice the L2 cache. And the 170 was a lot cheaper than a 180

As it turns out, when they still had the 185, it was more than twice what I paid for the 170. As far as that goes, the Opty 170, a tube of Arctic Silver (to replace the cheap paste I've been using), and a cheapie Asus mobo (package deal with the Opty) to put the San Diego into (so I can use the resulting machine as a full-time shrubber) all cost only about $30 more than the 4400+ X2 before they disappeared, including shipping (shipping on the 4400+ X2 was free). The other thing is, the 4400+ X2 was OEM, and the Opty comes with what is by most accounts a pretty good HSF

Heck, if , in a month (when I should have some more money to spend), they still have anything at least as good as an Opty 165, I might get one of those to build another full-time shrubber, particularly if they have a good mobo package deal to go with it.
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Elwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say it, but Lappy is going to retire from BOINC for a while. It has just been running too hot despite the throttling at stock speeds or the undervolting and I just cannot afford random system crashes on this machine. I might get around to testing BOINC under the Ubuntu partition instead, just to see if it a software issue, but I don't think so.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elwood wrote:
I hate to say it, but Lappy is going to retire from BOINC for a while. It has just been running too hot despite the throttling at stock speeds or the undervolting and I just cannot afford random system crashes on this machine. I might get around to testing BOINC under the Ubuntu partition instead, just to see if it a software issue, but I don't think so.


Bummer.

I'm running into the inability to OC, because of the combination of a new, hotter CPU, and higher ambient temps.

Do you have higher ambient temps to contend with?

At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to insult your intelligence (which I most decidedly am not), have you tried one of those active laptop cooling gizmos? Cyberguys has quite a variety of them. or someone handy could just rig one up, given the concept as to how they work.
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JerWA
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of fans + new A/C unit = no temp problems here, even from the convection oven I call an AMD XP3k. Exhaust temps from the 2 rear fans are >100F, but the system is happy as can be. Just producing a ton of heat.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerWA wrote:
Lots of fans + new A/C unit = no temp problems here, even from the convection oven I call an AMD XP3k. Exhaust temps from the 2 rear fans are >100F, but the system is happy as can be. Just producing a ton of heat.


Sounds a lot like my Opty, except it has just one weak-suck (pun intended) 120mm fan that came with the case. Oh, yeah, there are two small (40 mm?) fans on the mobo for the PWM. They have red LEDs inside and quite aptly look like little starship engines.

And the PSU fan, of course.

Oh, well, you get the idea.

My now-retired-from-BOINC Celery used to put out a fair amount of heat along the sides. Since I had it on the floor under my workstation, it would keep my feet rather toasty.

In researching reviews on air-cooled cases that cool well (because my new case that was supposed to fix my cooling problems seems to have actually raised the PWM temperature), I ran across one now defunct design that had the PSU in the lower front corner of the case, with PSU cooling air exhausting under the front bezel. Where the PSU usually goes, they had at least two, good-sized fans. I guess the idea was that the hot air would reach the top of the case by convection, where it could be blown out of the case without impediment. Also, the fans didn't have any frames, supposedly to make them quieter.
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JerWA
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, too much work. It's not that hard to check the cooling on your case. Really it just comes down to air movement. You can get a temperature probe cheap, and just move it around and leave it in each spot for awhile to see if that spot is circulating air or not. If the case has dead spots, it'll probably be a bish to fix. Normally the PSU is in the top rear because it intakes from the case (i.e. it pulls from the hot air stuck in there) and exhausts it.

That setup you're talking about with the PSU in the bottom front is a non standard setup, avoid at all costs. If you want the PSU down low, get a BTX case (or BTX compatible).


^ BTX layout.

The only thing I'd say is to make sure the case has a blowhole (top vent) or put in a PCI slot exhaust fan in the last ('top") slot, so you're not getting a nice pocket of hot air stagnating on top of your graphics card. Oh, and at Newegg at least, don't search for BTX, they only have 3 listed. There are lots of cases using the same layout that aren't actually BTX, but who cares.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerWA wrote:
The only thing I'd say is to make sure the case has a blowhole (top vent) or put in a PCI slot exhaust fan in the last ('top") slot, so you're not getting a nice pocket of hot air stagnating on top of your graphics card. Oh, and at Newegg at least, don't search for BTX, they only have 3 listed. There are lots of cases using the same layout that aren't actually BTX, but who cares.


I read that the problem was that BTX was designed to work strictly on Intel mobos. The other thing I read was that there's something to be said for a sort of psuedo-BTX, in that the layout works better sometimes. In fact, they said all of that in a review of a case that could work for either ATX or BTX mobos. I can see where that case you show as an example could make lead dress a lot simpler.

One case I looked at had a 210mm fan on the top, but it was out of my price range, and I think the big fan only had a molex on it. The case I'm using has one of those CPU snorkel gizmos on the side panel (passive, though), and a built-in "VGA grille" (a rectangular array of small holes) in the lower corner of the side panel. I think the problem is that there's a dead air pocket on the air intake for the PWM fans, because they had to adapt the weak-suck 120mm fan to a space that wasn't really designed for a fan that big.

The noisy (but very effective) 120mm fan I already had wouldn't fit in front (where there were holes but no fan), because it is too thick. I put a smaller fan I had on hand in there instead.

All that being said, I would hate to cut this one up, because it's the first genuinely, brand-new case I've ever bought; despite all of its shortcomings, it's fairly nice-looking, and my metalworking skills aren't particularly stellar.

What I really want to do is put three Silenx 120mm fans in it (replace the two that are in there, and put another one behind the drive bay) and be done with it. I can even get red LEDs in the fans, which will look nice with the red motif of the mobo (which aleady has red LEDs all over it). I have a line on a guy that seems to always have a dutch auction going on ebay, and I just haven't had the cash to go for it yet.
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JerWA
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only "gotcha" in using the AbTX setup (hehe new term) is you need long leads on the PSU side to reach everything.

I'm not fond of chopping up cases either, but making a blowhole is fairly easy. You don't even have to cut a hole if you don't want, you can simply put the fan outside on top and mark the corners, then drill the corners and a random collection of holes within that area. Use a file to smooth it all off and then get one of those $4 fan filters I have. I know, filter on an exhaust fan? The whole point is that the fan can mount inside the case, and the filter setup makes it look all nice and "finished." If you leave out the filter element and just use the plastic frame and overlay, it wouldn't even impede airflow (and it'd let red light out hehe).
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Elwood
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got lappy running BOINC somewhat sporatically and underclocked, but I guess every bit helps. I do not have active cooling, but the intake and exhause are on the back and side respectively on this model, and it has plenty of room to breath. For whatever reason, it just runs itself up inot the mid to upper 70's C under constant load, which I am uncomfortable with. That's getting on toward too hot to use lappy's keyboard. Once you've reached the point of using an external keyboard, things have gone too far.
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JerWA
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It gets that hot because laptops are underengineered. I don't know why consumers put up with it. It's like buying a sports car that you can only drive fast 10% of the time or it overheats. In other words, the maximum cooling capacity of your laptop (and like 98% of them on the market) cannot deal with the maximum heat output of the components. Bugs the hell out of me and is why I've never owned a laptop.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elwood wrote:
[snip]I do not have active cooling, but the intake and exhause are on the back and side respectively on this model, and it has plenty of room to breathe. [snip]


You know it's a hoot that they are still commonly called "laptops", because modern ones run too damn hot to leave in your lap for very long!

You know, you could probably help it run cooler by:
1) Putting it on something that is a reasonable heat conductor, but has a lot of thermal mass. For instance, my work laptop seems to be much happier when it's sitting on the Silestone (synthetic granite) counter between our kitchen and dining room where I work sometimes.

2) Just raising it up (by the edges), especially if you can get some air moving under it (think cheapie, clip on fan from Walgreens or Big Lots or whatever).

The part on the bottom that gets hottest is called the "spreader", and if you can get it either in free air (especially if it's moving), or in contact with something that will soak up the heat, it ought to be happier.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerWA wrote:
The only "gotcha" in using the AbTX setup (hehe new term) is you need long leads on the PSU side to reach everything.


I like the new term.

JerWA wrote:
I'm not fond of chopping up cases either, but making a blowhole is fairly easy.


I scored a couple of ThermalTake 130mm fans at MicroCenter that are designed to fit 120mm mounting holes. I figured I could take one out of the package and see if it fits in the front of the case. If not, I can probably make it work in the back, then either return the other one or use it elsewhere. They were only $10/each - rated 54.4 cfm at only 16 dBa They even have three pin connectors so I can control them with the fan EQ on the mobo.
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Lnkwizard2
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as cooling goes, I have an Intel Core 2 duo running at 3.0 GHz, however my cooling system is a Thermaltake CL-W0042 Liquid Cooling tower. I run BOINC full out on both cores and have a CPU temp of 113F/45C and the two other temp sensors read 99F/37C and 102F/38C. The ambient air temp is roughly 80F. It was a bit tricky (very poor instructions and the need to add some extra sealer on a few piping joints) to install, but once it was running it was sweet. Prior to swapping the cooling sytem the average temps were between 140F/60C to 150F/65C. On my system max temp before failure is roughly 175F/72C.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lnkwizard2 wrote:
As far as cooling goes, I have an Intel Core 2 duo running at 3.0 GHz, however my cooling system is a Thermaltake CL-W0042 Liquid Cooling tower. I run BOINC full out on both cores and have a CPU temp of 113F/45C and the two other temp sensors read 99F/37C and 102F/38C. The ambient air temp is roughly 80F. It was a bit tricky (very poor instructions and the need to add some extra sealer on a few piping joints) to install, but once it was running it was sweet. Prior to swapping the cooling sytem the average temps were between 140F/60C to 150F/65C. On my system max temp before failure is roughly 175F/72C.


ExtremeTech ran a comparison of three different liquid cooling systems, one of which was one piece (it looks like a fat HSF, though not nearly as large as some). The funny thing is, the self-contained one outperformed one of the traditional systems, and cost a lot less to boot.
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