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Grizzly
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cannee find a free windoze one , but this may help under Linux

Regds Grizz
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Grizzly
Prince
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Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 3136
Location: Creepy (Crawlley)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cannee find a free Windoze one , but for a Linux box (486 or so) as a dedicated Router , this may help

http://distrocenter.linux.com/article.pl?sid=05/03/07/2210204 for review

http://www.astaro.org/ For demo


And its free

Regds Grizz
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Oh Bugger Forgot again - or is it Oh Father Reboot again ?

Ps Grizz in his second childhood - but not his last !

Edihtor of the KoKC (excused spel;l checher'er)

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A Shrubbery
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Joined: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 1861
Location: Pacific NW

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Grizz, but I have zero experience so far with Linux and I've tossed all my old systems, or given them away. At one time, I probably could have made a dozen just with the parts I had lying about.

Turns out QoS was not installed on that PC so all the settings I had put in the router were doing no good.

I had previously explained the concept of limited bandwidth but that didn't really get far. I tried explaining how pages with multiple pictures took a lot of bandwidth and got the moose stare, so I gave up.

Anyway, seems to be working much better now. At least bearable.

Stay tuned to "As the Stomach Turns" for our next exciting episode.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Simple solution Reply with quote

I have an idea. Get an a hub, (not a switch) attach it to your switch or router, and also hook a computer running MJ12 to that same hub. The collisions will beat up his connection so much that he will barely get anything through.

Ebay is littered with 10baseT-only hubs, for next to nothing.
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Sir Papa Smurph
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comcast told me that if you use a hub you will need a separate outside IP address for each connection. This could get very expensive me thinks.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Papa Smurph wrote:
Comcast told me that if you use a hub you will need a separate outside IP address for each connection. This could get very expensive me thinks.


What is each host (computer) using for an IP address now? Either you already have a range of "outside" (to use Comcast's term) IP addresses assigned to you, or (more likely) you have exactly one "outside" IP address, and you have a router (perhaps built into your modem) that is doing (NAT/PAT) to multiple computers, and acting as a DHCP server - assigning each of computer what is called a private IP address, that never leaves your LAN.

Comcast is blowing smoke! The are so totally pulling your chain here! If you replace whatever is currently acting as your DHCP server with a dumb hub, then they have a point, and that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is to essentially use a dumb hub to siamese two ethernet connections on to one port on the existing switch or router. This is quite a bit more like a duplex adapter for your telephone (where you can plug two telephone devices into one phone jack) than you might think. In fact, early dumb hubs weren't amplified, so they were exactly like that.

A dumb hub is basically a brain-dead version of a switch. If it is downstream of a router and/or a switch (whatever you have now), not only will your computers not know the difference, Comcast can't possibly know the difference.

Yes, you CCNA folks, I know you can sense spanning remotely, and if the router that Sir Papa is using (especially if it was supplied by Comcast) can do that from the WAN link, I will cheerfully grind it into a powder, roll it up and smoke it!

I wish I could draw a picture. I'll try to do it in a narrative:
1) Power up dumb hub (not switch hub, or this won't work), and attach an extra (preferably short) LAN cable to any port that has just a number, and no symbol (there may be one or two ports with a different symbol or designation [e.g "/x"] than the others. Do not use these ports unless directed to try them**. Long story)
2) Disconnect cable from router or switch hub's LAN port (existing connection) that leads to evil roomate's computer (ERC)
3) Plug short cable from dumb hub to where you just disconnected ERC
4) Plug ERC cable into dumb hub (avoid special ports as above). His connection should now restored (lights light up on the dumb hub and the existing port). If not, try moving the short cable from the regular port on the dumb hub to the special port (hopefully, you have one). This might say "/x" or "uplink". Chances are, you won't have to do this. If you don't get lights, and you don't have the "/x" or "uplink" port on the dumb hub, plug ERC back in where it was, go get a "crossover cable" at the computer store, and use that to connect between the existing setup and the dumb hub. Again, you probably won't have to do this (most newer equipment automatically adjusts the connection type).
5) Disconnect cable from router or switch (existing setup) that goes to computer you want to use as LAN hog, e.g. running MJ12 (MJ12)
6) Plug MJ12 cable into another non-special port on dumb hub as above
7) Run MJ12 on your MJ12 computer.

What will happen is, when ERC pauses, for even a fraction of a second, he will lose his bandwidth and probably never get it back. Depending on how persistent he is, it might temporarily slow down the MJ12 crawling, though I wouldn't bet on the human-managed computer in this race.

This is because a dumb hub is like a party line, and ERC and MJ12 are both vying for bandwidth from the same LAN router or switch port. Since the ethernet protocol can't allow two hosts to talk at once on the same wire (which is essentially what a dumb hub is), when a "collision" is detected (both hosts trying to get on at the same time), they both have to back off for a random interval, and try again. Since MJ12 has a Terminator-like relentlessness in hogging all possible bandwidth, I don't see ERC getting a word in edgewise, no matter how many windows with how many thumbnails he's trying to keep open.

The beauty of this is, the other switch/router ports (going to other computers) will still seamlessly share whatever bandwidth you have told MJ12 to leave available. They won't have to compete directly on the same wire like ERC. Up to the remaining bandwidth, they will have essentially unimpeded access to the Internet.

In case you're wondering, a switch hub figures out which host is talking to which port, and sends only the packets designated for the that host to that port. That way, the hosts don't have nearly as many "collisions", because they pretty much have their respective ports to themselves, especially when they want to send packets, since the packet won't appear on the other ports, the other hosts pretty much don't know that they're there.

Think of a switch hub as two separate phone lines (with different phone numbers, perhaps with the old-fashioned "rollover" between one and the other), and a dumb hub as two phones plugged into the same phone jack via a duplex adapter. The analogy falls short when you consider total bandwidth, and it should at least give you a different way to look at the distinction between the two.

And, in case you think I'm speaking in the theoretical here, I have exactly this setup running at work. I wanted to hook two computers to one ethernet jack, and I didn't want to goof up their spanning (another long story), so I have specifically chosen to use hubs instead of switches (I started with a big one I had lying around, then got a smaller, more discreet one on ebay), and I have been doing this for years. My work network uses a variation of the DHCP scheme descibed above, where each computer is assigned an outside (not private) IP address by the DHCP server. If using a hub were going to cause problems, this setup would be even more likely to cause problems than your setup with the router acting as a DHCP server for private IP addresses.

**Another common variation on the crossover port theme on older hubs is the way it is done on my Cisco hub - there is a port tht is labeled "12X" and another port labeled "12", with a white line painted on the front panel, connecting the two jacks. That that means is it is a special or crossover port on the 12X jack and just a regular port on the 12 jack, and the line between them indicates you have to use one or the other. I have also seen slide switches that change one port between regular and crossover, usually right beside the port.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Papa Smurph wrote:
Comcast told me that if you use a hub you will need a separate outside IP address for each connection. This could get very expensive me thinks.


BTW, if you have a hub hooked to a computer, you can run a port sniffing app on another computer plugged into that same hub, and pick up everything that the first computer is sending. Sort of a hardware "man in the middle" exploit.
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JerWA
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Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 1497
Location: WA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with that idea is that MAJ12 will never back down unless it's on profiles. Why is that a problem? Dumb roommate is for-sure going to come whine that the Internet is broken. Probably repeatedly. And, if it happens often enough, they will just migrate to your PC any time you're away. There's also the fact that, as you mentioned, both systems back off. The effect won't be dramatic, but it will be present and persistent, negatively affecting your own Internet access.

That's why I say you just QoS him into the ground. Put everyone else one notch above dirt importance, put him at dirt, and put yours as highest. It might even all get along. It might just ignore it, too, which is a PITA. That's why you should win the lotto and buy a managed switch. Teach stupid Windows to ignore QoS scheduling! Laughing
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Cohiba
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 1721
Location: A tabbaco plantation

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

man you all are making this way to difficult..

yes you could study up use CCNA type power with some fancy router..

To see where people are going you need the man/router in the middle that can have monitoring software like me and JonnyV have talked about.

But to stop mr Pr0n ideally you just want a smart router as your gateway before your cablemodem/dsl modem. There are many cheap {$54 from best buy} easy to config routers that will do all you need. Personaly I recomend Linksys because they seem pretty dummy proof, dlink is also good.

The new router/gateways offer DHCP so all the pc's will get there own IP address they offer the ability to make it so a pc gets the same IP every time via DHCP. They now offer Quality of Service QOS where you can take a specific IP and tell it you only get 1mbs or less, below from Linksys's BEFSR41 user manual. Wireless models offer same features. So put mr Pr0n into port 2 and set the QOS of port 2 to only like 256k Twisted Evil


Ethernet Port Priority
Ethernet Port Priority QoS allows you to prioritize performance for four of the Router’s ports, LAN Ports 1-4. For each of these ports, select High or Low for Priority. For Flow Control, if you want the Router to control the
transmission of data between network devices, select Enable. To disable this feature, select Disable. The Router’s other four ports will be automatically assigned low priority. Incoming Rate Limit limits the incoming bandwidth. To use this feature, select 8M, 4M, 2M, 1M, 512K, 256K, or 128K (M stands for Mbps, while K stands for kbps). If you do not want to use this feature, keep the default, Disable. Ethernet Port Priority QoS does not require support from your ISP because the prioritized ports are LAN ports going out to your network
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Cohiba
Prince
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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Location: A tabbaco plantation

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnyv

We're using switches. At the moment, I'm thinking something like [url="http://www.ntop.org wrote:
ntop[/url] or [url="http://www.ossim.net/"]Ossim[/url]. Placing a device between the machines and the gateway wouldn't be a problem. The current gateway is just a cheap netgear vpn router. It doesn't do much in the way of reporting, and certainly nothing that's very convenient.


Ossim looks like overkill and seems mostly for is my infrastructure up similar to whatsup by ipswitch. ntop looks pretty good will fire up the vmware appliance and kick the tires a little.
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Lloyd M.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerWA wrote:
There's also the fact that, as you mentioned, both systems back off.


I guarantee that the effect would be quite dramatic. The ethernet protocol retry process is per TCP/IP packet, and happens multiple times (starting at a fraction of a second, and getting longer by random amounts each time) if collisions keep occurring. Once one host gets a packet started, the other one has to stay off the line (the protocol dictates "listening" before transmitting), which is why I think the MJ12 host would take over and never look back.

Might be fun if it were possible to come up with some goofy MJ12 profile, like two minutes on and 30 seconds off.

And, at my house, the computers are all password-protected (and I'm the only one that knows all the passwords). Yes, I know that Windoze admin password can be reset fairly easily if you have physical access to the system, and I'm the only one here that's sophisticated enough to do that. Sounds like the evil roomate isn't knowledgable enough to do that, either.

Switching network jacks is another matter, especially if he has a laptop.

I agree about QoS being a much better solution. Didn't someone come up with a way to do that with linux? And wasn't there some issue with setting it at ER's computer? I suppose the linux router box would be working with MAC addresses anyway, which has the added advantage of it working no matter which jack evil roomate plugs into.

That gets back to the very amusing notion someone proposed of telling evil roomate that computers can only access the Internet so much, and he's used his up. #evil

The devious network hub idea was offered because it is cheap and easy to implement (strictly hardware, and not much of that, even)

I've seen some managed switches on the aftermarket, thought I don't know if any of them are new/sophisticated enought to offer QoS. Might be a fun thing to try.

Hmm - was that a switch or a hub I won last time on ebay? I've never even looked at it. I snagged it because I could get it for the $3 minimum bid plus tax, with no shipping (because the seller is only about two miles from here).

If there is a way to throttle some ports but not others on this thing, it might be just what the doctor ordered.
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JerWA
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as mentioned above you can use some of the routers to do it (like the WRT54G/GS), and with third party firmware they are almost a managed switch in and of themselves. The problem is they are still mostly doing QoS as opposed to traffic shaping. Port/MAC throttling might work, and the 54G has that as well, but I don't know if it's asking or just doing (the difference between QoS and shaping). The main issue I have with using a cheap broadband router to do this is that the built-in switches in them suck horribly, and to get any sort of effecient throughput with them near the peak of the network you need to put a switch in front of the router (this helps anyways, keeping LAN traffic away from the router). For whatever reason, the router can handle one port of 100% traffic better than 2 ports of 50%, or 4 of 25%.

On my Texas network, for example, I had 7 hosts sharing a network connection. They were all used regularly, but not very strenuously. Everything was working just fine until I tried to add an 8th host. I had no open switch ports at the time, so I dropped it into a switch port built into the router (everything else was on a switch that was uplinked to the router). That lone host, direct to the router, would be at an advantage you'd think. Except the switch in the router sucked, and acted more like a hub. Simple pings from the host on the router port showed a constant packet loss of 6%, and spikes of up to 50% loss. I bought a cheap 4 port hub for that location (it was with another host that was direct to one of my switches) and moved both hosts onto it, with the hub going to the switch, and everything worked fine again. Even on a hub it showed no packet loss, and worked just fine. That's why I say trying to use the switch in those routers is a gamble at best, all of my experiences with them have been negative. My 4 year old 10/100 8-port no-name on the box switch that cost $40 brand new is STILL working flawlessly (in that network) but the brand new expensive router (It was one of those VPN SoHo routers, purchased by the workplace of one of my users for her to work from home) with "built in switch" puked it's guts up trying to deal with the same load. Bah.

I'm pretty sure I've been over all this earlier in this very thread lol. Laughing
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